#205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:18 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:13 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:39 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:57 pm

Previous note unhidden: viewtopic.php?p=126893#p126893

So many stones below the fourth line already! What is the world coming to? :roll:

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:36 pm

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:09 am

The Intrepid wrote:Comments regarding My first move was in the center because, as explained previously, my intent was to play a center-stone-first-as-White fuseki. I placed the stone at 8-7 because that is the move manhammer uncorked against Uberdude. However, I think that neither playing a stone in the center nor placing it at 8-7, given topazg's first move, were efficient choices. Had topazg played at 4-4, Gan Siyang's move at 8-8 would work well because of the miai of "a" and "b":
$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . a . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . a . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A move at 8-7 would lack such a miai. A stone on the top side is easier to coordinate with the central stone than a stone on the right side, as shown below:
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . @ . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . Q . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . @ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . Q . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

??????????? This idea of miai with strange centre stones is far above my level of understanding.

illluck wrote:It feels to me like Intrepid is massively over-thinking this.

Yup.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:17 pm

Some real-life stuff is keeping me busy. I should have a move before the weekend, though.

jts · Post by **jts** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:23 pm

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:26 am

I'll make my move tomorrow.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:13 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I looked at a lot of options for White. Many of them seem playable. Let's look at some of them.

1). A play in the corner

There are four ways one could play in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a b . . . . . . $$ | . . c d . O . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

For example,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . S . . $$ | . . . , . O . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . M M . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . X $$ | . . S . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . . . . . . $$ | . X X , . . . . . , $$ | . . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

Next, White would aim to exploit the weaknesses marked :ex:

. What worried me about this, however, is that Black can aim to exploit the weaknesses marked :es:

.

2). One-space extension from the stone at the top

This move could lead to the following continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . O . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . X $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 5 O O . . . . . . $$ | . X X , . 6 . . . , $$ | . . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

Here, both Black and White groups on the left side would become stable. However, Black's territorial gains would be greater. In exchange, White would have influence on the top side. Yet, it could prove difficult to sufficiently monetize this influence so as to offset the territorial loss on the left.

3). Pincer

I primarily considered these pincers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . O . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a b c . . . . . $$ | . . d e . . . . . . $$ | . . f g . . . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . X $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . . . . . . $$ | . X X , . . . . . , $$ | . . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

All these pincers seem interesting to me. For example, "f" is one of the joseki-recommended extensions from the two stones on the bottom. However, since I would like to fight in this game, I decided to play a close pincer so as to apply maximum pressure onto the Black stone. Of these, "b" seemed to me like the best way to both deny Black a stable position in the corner and to help White in the running battle, which is likely to arise.

topazg now faces an interesting (and difficult) choice. Does he run at "a" (which I think he will) or does he play in the corner (most likely at the 4-4 point) ... or does he go for something crazy like "c"?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . b . O . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . a . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . c . . . . . .[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:01 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As discussed. I think White is being a bit generous to Black here. Everything is settling, and I'm actually picking up points. His :w2:

is very high, and combined with B4 White doesn't really have any easy large points on the left. Now White has effectively approached my 4-4 high, and after I extended, has pincered. I'd have been very happy with the move order below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, I'm happy here too. I think White should have taken the top left and forced me to settle on the left.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:03 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:18 am

Edit:

Life In 19x19

#205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols