#204 Annihilist vs Otenki

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Unusedname
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by Unusedname »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . b . O 6 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


is this too aggressive?

let yourself be split in two and take away black's base?

if B splits make the 24 group stronger at a

or if B protects his base connect at b

it seems easy to settle the 26 group.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Unusedname,
Unusedname wrote:is this [ :w1: ] too aggressive?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ . . , . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------------[/go]
Broken shape for W.
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by Annihilist »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . 6 O 7 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Same idea.
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otenki
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by otenki »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . 6 O 7 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black just played a thank you move. Blacks move is inducing me to make good shape.
I'll gladly take that offer.
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by Annihilist »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O X 9 . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Same again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O X 9 . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My next thought is either a or b. I'm thinking a, for influence, so he has to come into my area and split my groups up top.


I'm away till around the 8th, then I'll be back.
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otenki
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by otenki »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O X 9 . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok I thought about this for quite a while. I can start storming the top and left like a crazy guy but I want a stable shape on the right bottom before.
The reason for this is because I want to start a fight which will probably go throughout a larger area of the center and bottom.
If I'm not carefull then my thickness will be erased because of the weakness.

So I'll fix it first before the rage of war starts starts... :-)

This also makes his shape in the corner weaker and surrounded.
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by Annihilist »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm fairly sure this is my corner now. I expect him to either close off that open skirt, or tenuki. Tenuki is probably better for white as he now has the advantage of sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like a as black as my next move. Develop influence towards center, putting pressure on anything trying to invade the topside, and working against his lower-right wall. b is doable too, but I'd play that only if a was taken or if it were really necessary.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

For beginners. :b31: is too small and too slow.
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by otenki »

Sorry for my late reply, I forgot it was my turn.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is such a difficult position because we have so many options :-)
- We could create influence to fight on the left side.
- We could expand our framework, forcing black to keep his teritory.
- We could just split the top.

The only thing I'm totaly unintrested in is the right side.

Ok so the first move that comes to mind is leaning on the outside of top left aproaching stone.
This makes the left side weak which should be great for attacking for influence in the center.
Howhever the problem with this is that I give influence to black on the top which is very anoying.

But I cannot have everything, I've learned that much. So what do I do first ?
Splitting the top feels like an option but its so very very goté.

Sigh. What to do ?

I guess I'll just pincer the stone and get a life in the top middle.
This way black does not get to make influence in the center.
OR if he does get influence, it will be influence with aji of white stones there.

Ether way I'll be happy that way.
Now the question is do I want to pincer high, low and how far.

I think i'll pincer far away and on the 3rd line. This move probably does not exist in joseki but screw that :-)

The reason for 3rd line is because I want to make easy life. The reason for far away is so he will probably not pincer my pincer.
And if he should pincer my pincer I have lots of space.
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Post by EdLee »

otenki,
otenki wrote:This is such a difficult position because we have so many options :-)
- We could create influence to fight on the left side.
- We could expand our framework, forcing black to keep his teritory.
- We could just split the top.
When you say "we," don't you mean "I" (just yourself) ? Who is this "we" -- you and your puppy? :)
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by otenki »

For Edlee:

Wow, yes why am I writing this way, I have no idea!
Maybe when I'm playing this malkovich game I never feel like I'm alone at it.
The reason being that I have to explain to someone else what I'm doing so it kindoff feels like other people are also playing only they don't have a say in where the next move goes :-)

We'll (:D) try to refrain from doing so as its very wierd indeed :-)

Cheers,
Otenki
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tj86430
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Re:

Post by tj86430 »

EdLee wrote:When you say "we," don't you mean "I" (just yourself) ? Who is this "we" -- you and your puppy? :)[/hide]

I guess (s)he's member of some royal family, I believe they refer to themselves in plural, even when it is in fact only one person. Or is it reserved only to the reigning monarch?
Offending ad removed
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by otenki »

In my language (dutch) we call this royal plural or king's plural.
Since I'm in fact a duke's descendent and not royal blood this can of course not be the case ;-)

Cheers,
Otenki
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ez4u
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by ez4u »

Obs:
The marked play by W in the lower right corner is a kind of joseki, I guess, in that it has appeared a few times in pro games. It is clearly based on the desire to prevent Black from moving into the bottom, which happens naturally in the more typical variations.

Black should push at least once - White is going to answer at :w2: or "a", otherwise why choose this joseki? :blackeye: The low play at :b3: below is the most common choice for how to settle the right side. If White answers, drawing back at :b5: is usual then White finishes things up with :w6: or the stylish-looking "b".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . O O . 3 . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . 5 . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . a 2 W O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here is one example from a no-komi "friendly". Black builds impressive outside influence but White ends with sente to invade the right side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Cho Hun-hyeon 9d - Cho Tae-hyeon 3d, Discovery Showdown, 1986-04-03
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Annihilist
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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Post by Annihilist »

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This is pretty much my immediate response. I feel like this move needs to be responded to, and I don't want to give him a lot of breathing space. So I'm putting pressure on his stone. If he jumps out, I'll eat his 3-4 stone and gain a fair amount of territory I'd say, even if I have to fight for it.

I also considered playing on the 4th line as a high pincer, but I think that gives him too much room to gain a lot of territory on the top side. I want him to work for his points. Also he has quite a lot on the other side already.

I still want to play the star point on the right side, it looks like a bit point where I can make a lot of gains, especially with that open skirt. But I think his move is a little more urgent at this stage.
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