Not correct tsumego ?

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otenki
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Not correct tsumego ?

Post by otenki »

Okay so someone from my local go club and me have been working ourselves through "jump level up" series.

For those who don't know it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JumpLevelUp

We howhever have a problem with one of the problems in the book:
You need to capture white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
The answer is fairly straight forward:
I've put it in hide tags if someone wants to try to solve it :-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 3 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
This is all fine but we have a problem with this variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
Resulting in...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
Are we missing something or is this problem wrong ?

Thx,
Otenki
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
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otenki
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by otenki »

Thanks, that seems to solve it! :-)
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newmorning
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by newmorning »

When white connects with 4 above black 3 instead of the hane, he wins the capturing race i think
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HermanHiddema
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Re:

Post by HermanHiddema »

EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
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msgreg
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by msgreg »

EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?
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otenki
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by otenki »

msgreg, the problem is white can capture. So that variation is for sure not good for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 0 X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
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tj86430
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by tj86430 »

msgreg wrote:EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?
How about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 3 X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
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logan
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by logan »

The books have a few more incorrect problems -- about 1-2 per vol. I've circled all the incorrect problems, however only vol. 3 is with me right now. If you're interested I can post all the erratas in a few weeks when I get a hold of the books again.

Vol. 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O , . . . . . , .
$$ | . X O . O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]
Book solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , .
$$ | . X O 1 O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]
Correct solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Solution 1, :w4: @ :bt:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 2 X X . . . . . .
$$ | 7 O Y O 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 3 9 . . . . , .
$$ | . X O 1 O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]
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newmorning
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by newmorning »

That would be great Iogan!
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otenki
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Re: Not correct tsumego ?

Post by otenki »

Yeah it would be great to document, you could do it here or on http://senseis.xmp.net/ ?
Not sure which is the best spot for it.

Thanks!
Otenki
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