what is wrong with the 4-5 and 3-5 joseki?

[kylefoley76]

I read somewhere on senseis (can't find it now) that the stats on joseki are:

3-4 47%
4-4 46%
3-5 2%
4-5 2%
3-3 2%
other 1%

well, what's wrong with 3-5 and 4-5?

[EdLee]

well, what's wrong with 3-5 and 4-5?

Nothing.

[Alguien]

They are less flexible. They force you to decide/declare your intentions sooner.

[EdLee]

They are less flexible. They force you to decide/declare your intentions sooner.

I don't think either is true. Excerpts from Takao:
With the boom in the star point, the 5-3 and 5-4 are played less than before,
but they retain a stubborn popularity because of their rich variety.

Like the 3-4 point, [the 5-3] has the potential to make a small-knight enclosure.
Moreover, being located further along the side, it's full of potential for speedy development.
On the other hand, you often end up ceding the corner to the opponent.

As with the [5-3], [the 5-4] emphasizes development along the side;
it is closer to the center, so it is easier to build influence.
Because of these features, players who like thickness and moyos are fond of the 5-4 point.
On the other hand, it is a little slack territorially.

[Uberdude]

well, what's wrong with 3-5 and 4-5?

They are further from the corner, and we all know the proverb, "corners, then sides, then centre".

(Shhhh, don't mention the 3-3 point.)

[ez4u]

Pros do not play them because they do not win. We amateurs are under no such restriction, so enjoy!

Here is a quick table based on GoGoD (still summer 2012). This summarizes the first play in the 4 empty 10x10 quadrants of a little over 25,000 even games since 2002 (roughly the 6.5 point komi era). The plays are listed by frequency except for the top two lines (because I made a mistake )

What it tells us is (for example looking at the first two lines):
Black played first move on 3-4 a little over 31,000 times, winning 49.7% of those games. Meanwhile White played first move on 4-4 a little over 32,500 times, winning 51.4% of those games.

Plays on 3-4 and 4-4 accounted for some 98,000 out of 100,000 corners. Also shown is the difference in winning percentage for other choices compared to the best performer for Black (3-4) and for White (4-4). Note that any single game combines a variety of first plays and that the first play does not, in fact, determine the nature of the joseki played. For example if Black plays on 3-4, a White approach on 5-3 that is ignored by Black may turn the corner into a 5-3 joseki. Such distinctions are completely missing from this analysis. As always YMMV.

[SmoothOper]

Pros do not play them because they do not win. We amateurs are under no such restriction, so enjoy!

Here is a quick table based on GoGoD (still summer 2012). This summarizes the first play in the 4 empty 10x10 quadrants of a little over 25,000 even games since 2002 (roughly the 6.5 point komi era). The plays are listed by frequency except for the top two lines (because I made a mistake )

What it tells us is (for example looking at the first two lines):
Black played first move on 3-4 a little over 31,000 times, winning 49.7% of those games. Meanwhile White played first move on 4-4 a little over 32,500 times, winning 51.4% of those games.

Plays on 3-4 and 4-4 accounted for some 98,000 out of 100,000 corners. Also shown is the difference in winning percentage for other choices compared to the best performer for Black (3-4) and for White (4-4). Note that any single game combines a variety of first plays and that the first play does not, in fact, determine the nature of the joseki played. For example if Black plays on 3-4, a White approach on 5-3 that is ignored by Black may turn the corner into a 5-3 joseki. Such distinctions are completely missing from this analysis. As always YMMV.

I have been seeing the 3-5 in top level pro play more recently. I am not 100% sure but the reasoning I see is as a variation to the orthodox fuseki, which is popular. IE if white(black) really wants to make an enclosure with out a preemptive approach from a direction that allows black to create a large moyo framework he can open at 3-5, black can still approach of course, but it won't work as well with his other stones.

$$B A normal fuseki or not?
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B A normal fuseki or not?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now black can't play the mini-chinese approach move at 5.

[illluck]

Pros do not play them because they do not win. We amateurs are under no such restriction, so enjoy!

Here is a quick table based on GoGoD (still summer 2012). This summarizes the first play in the 4 empty 10x10 quadrants of a little over 25,000 even games since 2002 (roughly the 6.5 point komi era). The plays are listed by frequency except for the top two lines (because I made a mistake )

What it tells us is (for example looking at the first two lines):
Black played first move on 3-4 a little over 31,000 times, winning 49.7% of those games. Meanwhile White played first move on 4-4 a little over 32,500 times, winning 51.4% of those games.

Plays on 3-4 and 4-4 accounted for some 98,000 out of 100,000 corners. Also shown is the difference in winning percentage for other choices compared to the best performer for Black (3-4) and for White (4-4). Note that any single game combines a variety of first plays and that the first play does not, in fact, determine the nature of the joseki played. For example if Black plays on 3-4, a White approach on 5-3 that is ignored by Black may turn the corner into a 5-3 joseki. Such distinctions are completely missing from this analysis. As always YMMV.

Thank you for the stats, quite interesting.

However, I suspect there's more to the correlation than causation. I think 3-5 and 4-5 also tend to be associated with fighting games and may thus be used more frequently by weaker players who would prefer decide the game on a fight rather than play a calm game and lose by a few points. Therefore the lower winning ratio could reflect this tendency rather than inherent weakness/difficulty to play.

[skydyr]

Pros do not play them because they do not win. We amateurs are under no such restriction, so enjoy!

Here is a quick table based on GoGoD (still summer 2012). This summarizes the first play in the 4 empty 10x10 quadrants of a little over 25,000 even games since 2002 (roughly the 6.5 point komi era). The plays are listed by frequency except for the top two lines (because I made a mistake )

What it tells us is (for example looking at the first two lines):
Black played first move on 3-4 a little over 31,000 times, winning 49.7% of those games. Meanwhile White played first move on 4-4 a little over 32,500 times, winning 51.4% of those games.

Plays on 3-4 and 4-4 accounted for some 98,000 out of 100,000 corners. Also shown is the difference in winning percentage for other choices compared to the best performer for Black (3-4) and for White (4-4). Note that any single game combines a variety of first plays and that the first play does not, in fact, determine the nature of the joseki played. For example if Black plays on 3-4, a White approach on 5-3 that is ignored by Black may turn the corner into a 5-3 joseki. Such distinctions are completely missing from this analysis. As always YMMV.

Thank you for the stats, quite interesting.

However, I suspect there's more to the correlation than causation. I think 3-5 and 4-5 also tend to be associated with fighting games and may thus be used more frequently by weaker players who would prefer decide the game on a fight rather than play a calm game and lose by a few points. Therefore the lower winning ratio could reflect this tendency rather than inherent weakness/difficulty to play.

I suspect also that as ez4u mentioned, a lot of the time these positions come up through 3-4 > approach > tenuki, so that the relevant joseki are more common than a glance at the first move would indicate.

[Joaz Banbeck]

When the root of the tree is 4-5 or 5-3, no pro can read all of the branches.
I suspect that it is 50% fashion and 50% Alguins flexibility idea.

[gowan]

I suspect that the 5-3 and 5-4 moves are more likely to lead to complicated variations. For example, if you like to play the taisha then you should play the 5-3.

[SmoothOper]

Since, this thread was started, I have had several games against the 3-5, is it really good for fighting?

[Xyiana]

Since, this thread was started, I have had several games against the 3-5, is it really good for fighting?

Not without opponent cooperation, but this is a casefor all joseki with good fighting potential. All you need is to learn few peacefull variations and laugh. Chances for punishment thx to your dodge/slack moves in amateur games is rly small.

[hyperpape]

Dave, your results surprise me in one way: I thought Black's win rate in modern play is greater than 50%. Do you know if that's right, and if so, what makes your results look different?

[Mef]

Dave, your results surprise me in one way: I thought Black's win rate in modern play is greater than 50%. Do you know if that's right, and if so, what makes your results look different?

I don't have a source off hand, but I think I had read somewhere to that after komi went up from 5.5 to 6.5/7.5 it went from black winning slightly more to white winning slightly more.