149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

jts · Post by **jts** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:49 pm

cyclops wrote:I am sure Überdude already moved. But then he travelled back from the future to cancel his move. To calculate better probably. You know, he has plenty of time to manage that.
BTW I don't understand anything of the two previous posts and I doubt I want to.

Google proslogion

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:52 pm

The suspense of this game killed me some time ago. Then I was reborn, lived a full life of many years, and then the suspense killed me again. On round three, now, and the suspense is killing me...

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:33 am

Back by popular demand!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So what's going on here then? Well after such a long break I can hardly play a normal move, and this looks sufficiently cool to pretend I've been off trying to find the hand of God all this time. I saw Ilya Shikshin use it at the EGC last year in a similar position (http://files.gokgs.com/games/2012/7/23/EuroGoTV1.sgf). In reality I just got a bit put off by the effort of writing and also indecision meant I didn't know what was the best move and kept putting it off until I lost interest. After thrashing Magicwand on OGS I kind of felt under a lot of pressure to win this game too, and being black I'm the one having to be pro-active and making the direction of play decisions which feels harder in this game whereas before I was white and was reactively showing why his moves were bad. Anyway, I'll try to keep this game going even if it does mean I don't put so much effort into finding the best move.

After a pincer to an approach on 4-4, the easiest and default choice is to take the corner, but white's moyo is too big, especially now he has j8. White may then continue at a, which is normally a bad move when black just answers at g17 (as it loses h17 and black still has aims at b/c/d), but here the moyo seems big enough to justify it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 White too big $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 1 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 2 O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 8 . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . d X . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another choice is to double approach, I prefer high to counter white's moyo, and if this simple joseki results then black is not too bad, though white is still quite big. If white doesn't play 38 but tenukis then I can pull out my stone at b14 and if white keeps it dead at b15 then I get a very pleasing atari at 38 which significantly flattens white's moyo. Answering at 39 does mean I give white 38 in sente, but 39 is honte to defend against e17 and quite valuable itself to develop the top side and if white tenukis then I can jump to a to reduce later. Given Magicwand's style, I would expect him to continue at h14 now. I think this is playable for both.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Double approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . 9 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But the diagram above is rather self-indulgent, white would probably resist like this and it gets complicated. This is how the Lee Changho vs Cho Hun-hyeon game I mentioned a while ago went. The left side is the same except white (Cho) didn't have j8 so the fight is harder in my game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 White resistance like Lee vs Cho $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 O 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I want to make my c14 approach stone live to stop white getting too many points, I have some other choices like one point jump out to e14, attach on top at d12, maybe even the unusual knight's move to e13 as that makes it easier for me to press at d11 without worrying so much about the push and cut I would with the one point jump. The idea of this 2nd line attachment is if white hanes on the inside to capture it he gives me lots of useful forcing moves and as he is already strong on the left side I don't mind making him stronger there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 The trap $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I expect white to nobi to c11 or maybe hane at b11 and then I plan to jump out in sente and slide to b16 and make a small alive group that's not sealed in. But to be honest I just picked this 2nd line attachment because it is pretty darn cool.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:40 am

The Intrepid wrote:Tooveli, if you could, please, enlighten us a bit more: is Uberdude waiting to finish his game against Dinerchtein before resuming this one? If that's the case, the wait shouldn't last much longer because (with apologies to Uberdude) he seems to be getting torn apart out there, somewhat.

http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=348067

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:48 am

The Intrepid wrote:I'm nowhere near Uberdude's strength, so I could be wrong, but the way I see it, Uberdude is already behind on points (not even counting the komi) and his bottom left group may soon have to run for it's life (and there aren't many places to run to). To me, the game seemed pretty even until White's invasion in the bottom right with O3 (move 52). Perhaps Uberdude did not see or adequately appreciate the followup of White R3--or perhaps he made a mistake later on. In any case, the way it turned out, Dinerchtein not only reduced Black's moyo in the lower right by half, but also secured territory on the bottom for himself, and even kept sente to invade the top. This simply cannot possibly be the outcome Uberdude had in mind when White played O3.

Be as it may, I really hope the players review the game afterward and post comments.

Probably at o3 I was a little bit behind. I did anticipate r3 and the game result was hard to judge as I said in my comments, the main downside was gote. White didn't make much additional territory (just l3) and created a heavy group. But with hindsight the o8 cut gave me a good rhythm for the middlegame and allowed me to play g7 in sente to naturally settle my bottom left group.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:54 am

welcome back!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:57 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:27 am

@Uberdude:

Tooveli · Post by **Tooveli** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:35 am

Kirby wrote:@Uberdude:
Thank you for resuming the game. How can Shikshin style be classified?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:39 am

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:02 pm

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:37 pm

Uberdude wrote: Probably at o3 I was a little bit behind. I did anticipate r3 and the game result was hard to judge as I said in my comments, the main downside was gote. White didn't make much additional territory (just l3) and created a heavy group. But with hindsight the o8 cut gave me a good rhythm for the middlegame and allowed me to play g7 in sente to naturally settle my bottom left group.

Yes, that was good the way you played there. I'm curious about Wg14 (move 110) though. I wonder if breakfast didn't simply misread. If I recall correctly, he was moving quite quickly beforehand, but then thought for a long time on how to proceed.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:30 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually playing the jump out and slide is bad as you plan to continue with the d11 press and losing the option of 3-3 invasion is bad, but here my plan is to settle on the side as quickly as possible and this enlarges my eyespace in sente (white pretty much has to answer at 3-3) and prevents white playing c15 (or rather if white does c15 it is not good as I can block at b15 which makes good eyeshape, whereas without the slide if white c15 I have to descend to b14 and then my eyespace is a lot worse if I b16 later; compare the 2 diagrams below (this is a very common shape, of course deciding whether to lose the 3-3 invasion aji for the aditional eyeshape is a tough choice that is highly situation dependent).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Eye at a15. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 No eyes, just 1st line false eye rubbish $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 8 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:04 pm

The Intrepid wrote: I'm curious about Wg14 (move 110) though. I wonder if breakfast didn't simply misread. If I recall correctly, he was moving quite quickly beforehand, but then thought for a long time on how to proceed.

I don't know, hopefully he will comment on the game but I wouldn't count on it. It does seem like that was an overplay from him. Maybe he thought it was the best move, or maybe he knew g12 punished it and hoped I was too weak to find it: it was not an easy move to find and required a lot of reading and guts for me to play it. I was actually surprised how easily it worked in the game, I expected a very complex fight but my reading was it worked for me. Of course maybe g12 was not so great and he actually had a better response that we both missed.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:22 pm

A general comment on these Malkovich games. I find it quite isolated writing stuff but not being able to read the comments (except for those explicitly directed at me) until the game is over. Now I appreciate that I am rather a long way off the slow end of the playing speed scale but I think I would enjoy it more (as I do as an observer of other games) and thus keep interested in playing if I could read the comments at some point nearer to the time that bit of the board is happening. The idea is you are not supposed to read comments because they could help you play better, but, and I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, as one of the stronger players on this forum this is less of a problem for me than others. Also maybe most of the comments are "Lol, why is Uberdude so slow?"

. Once one part of the board has died down (e.g. the lower left joseki in this game) I wonder if it would be acceptable for players to look at the kibitz about it. Obviously there can be a problem if people are talking about aji left in that position and future possibilities as that could influence the players, but how common is this sort of kibitz? The default is currently that kibitz is only to be read at game end, perhaps it would be better if the default were kibitz can be read once play has moved from that area of the board and comments about future possibilities are the ones that should be explicitly marked as "not until game over"? Thoughts?

Life In 19x19

149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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