Could someone please show me how O.o. I find myself getting so frustrated when the board looks like this:
Say I'm black in the example above. White will invade with the stone as above and then follow up with another stone two spaces away. I can kill it 25% of the time. The other 75% it lives. And then when I try and invade on the right like in this example I always die! I suppose I am asking where to I defend? I dont know. I thought that stones such as above always can make life?
Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
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Spine
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Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
**We're living in a world that's make believe, they made; we believed.**
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billywoods
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Re: Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
No, stones on the third line two spaces apart are reasonably solid, but don't confuse that with locally alive - they only really enclose one eye (or none if white can jump underneath). This enclosure:
is usually locally alive.
There's a big difference between the two groups in your diagram: white's invading group has lots of space to expand along the side, but black only has room to expand into the centre, and eyes are easy to make on sides and hard to make in the centre.
Why does black have 5th and 6th line stones in an area where he hasn't even established a base (i.e. the centre top)? Why, when white played the first invasion stone, did black not immediately start to try to kill? It might be better if you show us an actual game where this happened so we can give less vague advice.
is usually locally alive.
There's a big difference between the two groups in your diagram: white's invading group has lots of space to expand along the side, but black only has room to expand into the centre, and eyes are easy to make on sides and hard to make in the centre.
Why does black have 5th and 6th line stones in an area where he hasn't even established a base (i.e. the centre top)? Why, when white played the first invasion stone, did black not immediately start to try to kill? It might be better if you show us an actual game where this happened so we can give less vague advice.
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Spine
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Re: Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
Ive attached a game I recently played. I died both on the right and on the bottom. I realized the bottom was hard to make life and I was attempting to try and learn something from the situation. The right was more of question for me. The top the other player made life where I felt he shouldn't have been able to.
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EdLee
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Spine, you need to work on the most fundamental things, first. Your basics:Spine wrote:I find myself getting so frustrated...
continue to play serious games, get them reviewed here (or on KGS).
It'll take time to fix your basics, one by one.
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billywoods
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Re: Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
I notice that Ed has posted already, but I've done this now, so...
Edit: ah, no, Ed and I have made disjoint sets of comments.
I commented only on the invasions that you asked about, and Ed commented on more fundamental things. I think Ed's comments are much more important in general.
Edit: ah, no, Ed and I have made disjoint sets of comments.
I commented only on the invasions that you asked about, and Ed commented on more fundamental things. I think Ed's comments are much more important in general.- Attachments
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- Example.sgf
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SmoothOper
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Re: Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
Spine wrote:Could someone please show me how O.o. I find myself getting so frustrated when the board looks like this:
Say I'm black in the example above. White will invade with the stone as above and then follow up with another stone two spaces away. I can kill it 25% of the time. The other 75% it lives. And then when I try and invade on the right like in this example I always die! I suppose I am asking where to I defend? I don't know. I thought that stones such as above always can make life?
Look at the position of the two groups. The white group on top has area to expand along the side and make eyes, as well as two cutting points that threaten to break through black wall. The group on the right can only expand towards the center. Furthermore there are attacks that can be made by white with the near by group that will suffocate eyespace.
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lightvector
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Re: Making life! Stones third line two spaces apart?
Hi Spine,
The answer of whether a two-space extension can survive in different situations and how best to attack or defend it is a very subtle and difficult one. It's a great question, but it's probably not a question that you will be able to find a satisfactory answer to for a long time. In general, the question of whether some loose group of stones under attack can live or not can be extremely difficult, even for the best players, and it can depend heavily on the *exact* position.
I'd side with Edlee and recommend that you focus on things that are far more fundamental. Play games and post them here for review. And learn about and try to avoid making broken shapes.
The answer of whether a two-space extension can survive in different situations and how best to attack or defend it is a very subtle and difficult one. It's a great question, but it's probably not a question that you will be able to find a satisfactory answer to for a long time. In general, the question of whether some loose group of stones under attack can live or not can be extremely difficult, even for the best players, and it can depend heavily on the *exact* position.
I'd side with Edlee and recommend that you focus on things that are far more fundamental. Play games and post them here for review. And learn about and try to avoid making broken shapes.