The future of KGS

[LocoRon]

I think he had a page on google plus detailing the progress on that, but don't remember the link.

https://plus.google.com/108736506961432085848/posts

The last post is from September... and the last post about the web client (from a quick perusal) is last March. Not that I really care. I hate browser-based apps. Although, it would be nice to refer people to KGS without having to worry about whether or not they have java installed and functional.

I think another motivation is to reduce the number of clients, and therefore, the future work needed in making changes.

Part of the (stated) reason he has developed an Android client but not an iOS client is because Android apps are developed in Java. This means a large portion of the codebase between Android app and desktop app is the same. All that needs to be handled separately is the UI code.

Java is generally considered much easier to maintain than HTML because there is only one JRE (well here are more but no one really cares if you support the others or not) while there are tons of browsers, and way more comparability issues.

This. So much this.

[jts]

I don't really think KGS needs more of this or that feature for its own sake, but different people are irked by different aspects of KGS, and I worry that someday soon there will no longer be a central gathering-point for Western Go players. I guess we can still all play on Tygem, so it's not the end of the world, but it would still be sad.

[Kirby]

...

Java is generally considered much easier to maintain than HTML because there is only one JRE (well here are more but no one really cares if you support the others or not) while there are tons of browsers, and way more comparability issues.

This. So much this.

The sentiment is probably true, but I don't think the statement, in itself, is completely true. For one, there are multiple versions of the JRE. It's not too infrequent that you have methods that become deprecated. So if you're using newer methods for stuff, you either have to force people to install yet another version of java on their machine, perform different behavior at runtime depending on java version, or run the risk of a runtime exception if you just don't care.

Secondly, if you follow the W3 html standards, you are less likely to run into compatibility issues than if you just write ad-hoc html.

To be honest, I like java. It's probably my second favorite programming language. But looking at the trends of the Internet, it's not the way of the future. You might have backend code on the server that content creators maintain because the language is easy and portable, but it's too much of a pain for everyday users to deal with.

People don't want to install 4 different versions of java on their computer. People don't want to keep updating flash software for their browser (which is not about java, but just something annoying). People like being able to go to a website that just works - you don't have to install any features, you just type in the url, and it's there.

This is my interpretation, anyway. There may be efforts that developers make to allow for people to have this convenience, but making things as easy as possible for the end-user (who may not be a technical person) is the way of the future (as usual, in my opinion).

And if Java is going to be a part of this future (for the presentation layer for end users), it needs to have some redesign.

[quantumf]

I think another motivation is to reduce the number of clients, and therefore, the future work needed in making changes.

As stated elsewhere, porting between different java environments (Android is java) is relatively trivial compared to porting to a Javascript environment.

Furthermore, adding a new HTML5/JS client doesn't equal abandoning the existing clients. Since reaching the existing functionality will take ages, most likely a limited capability initial version would first appear, and then go through a couple of years of iterating to reach or exceed the existing java client(s). So it's really just adding a new client, I don't see the existing clients going anywhere for at least a few years.

[quantumf]

But then I wonder if wms even cares that much. Since it's not his primary source of income, perhaps he will even welcome a credible english language alternative and can retire from the stress of running kgs.

Considering that he hasn't gotten around to make a one line change to fix the stone clicking sounds in over a year, it is evident he really doesn't care.

I'm pretty certain genuine bugs or performance problems would be addressed swiftly.

[quantumf]

The cost benefit analysis eludes me. To make a client as functionally capable and as stable and bug-free as the existing cgoban client will be a pretty epic task. And for what, exactly?...

Say it's the 90s, oh about the time that KGS was initially being developed. Making a go server and client functionally capable and stable would have been a pretty epic task. And for what, exactly?

To create something that wasn't there.

[quantumf]

People don't want to install 4 different versions of java on their computer. People don't want to keep updating flash software for their browser (which is not about java, but just something annoying). People like being able to go to a website that just works - you don't have to install any features, you just type in the url, and it's there.

To be fair, browsers also need to be updated and patched. Firefox in particular seem to have a new patch every two days. If you allow auto-updating, then it can be an essentially invisible process. Flash can now also be auto-updated. Not sure about the Java client.

You don't need 4 different versions of java - java is backwards compatible, so you only need the latest one.

[EdLee]

You don't need 4 different versions of java - java is backwards compatible, so you only need the latest one.

Is it ? -- Sound problems

[Charlie]

But then I wonder if wms even cares that much. Since it's not his primary source of income, perhaps he will even welcome a credible english language alternative and can retire from the stress of running kgs.

Considering that he hasn't gotten around to make a one line change to fix the stone clicking sounds in over a year, it is evident he really doesn't care.

I'm pretty certain genuine bugs or performance problems would be addressed swiftly.

I think the stone-clicking-sound bug is a genuine one. I also think a large number of users hold this view. It is a trivial, risk-free fix and I seem to remember that WMS promised that it would be made about six months ago.

I don't want to raise the issue of "duty" but I do think that WMS is being irresponsible. He should make up his mind: either support KGS properly or let people like Pasky make clients like Cgoban-h without fear or retribution, allowing the community to fix the things that are important to them.

(To avoid a pointless argument, I also think that it's fair for him to say that people using a hacked or unofficial client cannot complain about anything client-related - even outright crashes leading to the loss of rated games.)

[mumps]

Well, Java is all very well, but sadly Apple doesn't think very much of it for its mobile products, so if KGS wants iPad/iPhone users to access KGS then it needs to provide a new client - HTML5-based is probably OK.

[quantumf]

I think the stone-clicking-sound bug is a genuine one. I also think a large number of users hold this view. It is a trivial, risk-free fix and I seem to remember that WMS promised that it would be made about six months ago.

Fair point, my use of "genuine" was sloppy. I meant showstopping, which a click sound probably isn't.

[Uberdude]

I wouldn't call it showstopping either, but it is not minor. Little bits of feedback like that make playing so much more pleasant. Have you actually tried playing without it, I find it really disconcerting. I've heard some people no longer play on KGS because of this bug.

[quantumf]

Well, Java is all very well, but sadly Apple doesn't think very much of it for its mobile products, so if KGS wants iPad/iPhone users to access KGS then it needs to provide a new client - HTML5-based is probably OK.

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, if HTML5 ever does take off, and actually starts to threaten Apple's app store revenue model, you can be pretty sure that HTML5 will become demonized. Any platform that threatens Apple's control will suffer the same fate as Flash and Java.

[quantumf]

I wouldn't call it showstopping either, but it is not minor. Little bits of feedback like that make playing so much more pleasant. Have you actually tried playing without it, I find it really disconcerting. I've heard some people no longer play on KGS because of this bug.

It doesn't bother me at all. But I accept that it might be more irritating to others.

[amnal]

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, if HTML5 ever does take off, and actually starts to threaten Apple's app store revenue model, you can be pretty sure that HTML5 will become demonized. Any platform that threatens Apple's control will suffer the same fate as Flash and Java.

Flash is dying out because it's rubbish. Whilst apple were among the first to make a big statement to that effect, everyone else is also doing it because far better alternatives are maturing, not because apple has conspiratorial power over them.

Java applets are dying out for the same reason. Whilst originally a useful way to add complex functionality to the internet, it's been totally superseded by the better technologies now available such as the now very advanced capabilities of javascript. Again, nobody uses java applets not because apple says so, but because they honestly aren't a good way of doing things any more. Java as a language in general is, of course, doing fine...see android, for instance.

Obviously apple can and will do their best to promote their lucrative business model, but their anti-flash and anti-java-applet stance correlates with the decline of these things mostly because it's a technically good and sensible one...not because apple necessarily has the power to change this stuff just because it's convenient for them.