How to get started with joseki?

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:34 am

PeterPeter wrote:
xed_over wrote:I remember trying to learn a few joseki early on, but got completely frustrated when my opponents never responded with joseki moves.
To this, and similar comments: I am fine with this. It means my opponent has made the first mistake, and I should now have the upper hand. Are games not won by making fewer mistakes than your opponent?

I have changed my mind about this. Just because it is not a joseki I recognise, or is not one of the common ones, does not mean it is wrong.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:34 am

peppernut wrote:
amnal wrote:
Edit: More constructively, perhaps peppernut meant this one:

$$
$$ -------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . 3 . .
$$ |. . 1 , 2 . . . .
$$ |. . . . . 4 . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , 2 . . . . $$ |. . . . . 4 . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Doh! Indeed I meant this one. Looks like I need more memorization.

Actually, this is an interesting example of why we should be very careful not to assume our opponents are making mistakes when they play moves we don't recognise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . . $$ |. . . x x . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

This sequence is bad, of course, and we might even say it's clearly wrong. White is making bad shape and probably doesn't have any very strong followups. Since he can, he might instead choose moves like the xs.

Now, to back up our initial analysis, we can check a pro game database just to see if it's ever happened. And sure enough, it's practically non-existent, it simply doesn't get played.

Except...4 games. One's an amateur one, so lets ignore it. 3 are by Chen Zude...wait, I know that name. He's pretty famous, what's he doing playing this clearly bad move? Lets look at the games...hmmm...1/3 wins, and none of the results of the corner look great. So what's he doing? Does he have some grand whole-board plan that he thinks this will work in...in all 3 games it's the first corner sequence, so it isn't a direct response to an opponent's joseki unless he's looking to the future. Is he just messing around? Did he lose a bet? He doesn't seem to have persisted with it.

Now, I don't know what the answer is. But it does seem that even though the move isn't joseki and could reasonably be analysed as probably bad just by looking at it, for some reason Chen Zude has played it 3 times and won one of those games against another professional. So in the end, even if the move is terrible, I have to be very careful when saying how bad it really is or how much it affects my winning chances.

Of course we should still aim to analyse our opponents moves and try to find a response that shows it to be poor, but it's always worth being aware that the ways of professionals are deep and mysterious, and even for us amateurs it's nowhere near as simple as not-in-the-book being the same as bad!

For reference, here's one that Chen Zude lost (but only just) against Nie Weiping:

Koroviev · Post by **Koroviev** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:19 am

amnal wrote:
$$
$$ -------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . .
$$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . .
$$ |. . . x x . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . . $$ |. . . x x . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]
This sequence is bad, of course, and we might even say it's clearly wrong. White is making bad shape and probably doesn't have any very strong followups.

Can you explain why this is so bad? Thanks.

otenki · Post by **otenki** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:28 am

Koroviev wrote:
amnal wrote:
$$
$$ -------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . .
$$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . .
$$ |. . . x x . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . . $$ |. . . x x . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]
This sequence is bad, of course, and we might even say it's clearly wrong. White is making bad shape and probably doesn't have any very strong followups.
Can you explain why this is so bad? Thanks.

Black gets to make territory while he pushes white to run for his life.
If you read the potential continuations you will see.
If you cannot read it just try it on a board.

ps:

White 'kosumi' was considered joseki a long time in the high-aproach variation, but is now considered
an inferior variation..
=> according to eidogo.

Cheers,
Otenki

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:49 am

Koroviev wrote:
amnal wrote:
$$
$$ -------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . .
$$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . .
$$ |. . . x x . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . . $$ |. . . x x . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]
This sequence is bad, of course, and we might even say it's clearly wrong. White is making bad shape and probably doesn't have any very strong followups.
Can you explain why this is so bad? Thanks.

Well, as in my post I have to be very careful when saying if it's actually bad or how bad it is. Nevertheless, I think it probably is bad and a group of players encountering it for the first time would probably come to that conclusion.

The big reason is that I'd perceive that white can do better. In this shape, black can just play a jump from the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 x . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . 5 . . . . . .[/go]

...and what's white going to do? Push from behind at x? Actually, this would end up in a position from another joseki that doesn't come up much...probably because white isn't happy to have pushed from behind.

Alternatively, black can just push up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 5 . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

And in this case, it feels like white will have a tough time because he doesn't have strength to attack the corner properly - his shape is bad. Lets compare to another shape that's more common:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . 7 $$ |. . 1 , . 6 4 5 . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . 8 . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

In a shape like this, white can play the pressing pincer at 8 because he's become stronger in sente. Compare to our non-joseki where black has the vital point at 4 instead of white, making white's shape vitally weaker if black gets a chance to push out.

Black can play differently of course, such as:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 8 . $$ |. . 1 , . 6 4 5 . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . 7 . . . . . .[/go]

But then white can live with the move at 8, unlike in the game where he has bad shape and hasn't created a cut in black. I'll note that whilst this is more of a joseki than the bad shape we're discussing, nor is it the most popular sequence around for various reasons. It's a useful comparison that's well studied, though.

Of course, maybe the difference won't come to much. Even if this is bad for white, it likely isn't by a game losingly large amount except for pretty strong players...I know I could certainly contrive to lose the game as black!

So, I say it's bad because I know more common sequences that white could play which lead to a similar but (at least to my initial inspection) better shape for him. I often make this a big theme in teaching, actually, many common mistakes are more clearly mistakes when phrased in comparison to a more enthusiastic move that the opponent cannot resist and so is almost always better.

In simple terms, it's bad simply because it doesn't give white good shape and it asks black to take good shape by pushing up. After that, white doesn't have time to simultaneously make his stones strong and attack something, but if black easily gets strong on both sides then white hasn't gained anything and could have almost certainly done better with slightly different initial moves.

Edit: This feels all a bit confused, partly because I'm trying hard not to make absolute statements because it's a complex position and it's always possible to contrive a situation where the 'bad' move is good or to start a fight that makes the superior position unclear even if there is one. To be concise, I'd say that white's move helps black but does not help white, for all the reasons that this kicking shape (or is this more of a high five?) usually is bad. White retains shape weaknesses, black makes good shape. Whatever white's goal is, he has a better move to accomplish that goal, such as by playing one move further and attaching on top of black.

p2501 · Post by **p2501** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:52 am

Imho the best way to get started with joseki is not to.

You will pick up stuff on the way anyways.

jts · Post by **jts** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:20 am

Amnal - Were the other examples of that joseki also in relation to a W 3-3 in the facing corner? (It seems suspicious that Chen chose the rare variation in a game with an uncommon fuseki by move

...)

Peter - Rather than saying "there are lots of rare joseki variations, so what I think is a mistake might be a rare joseki", maybe it would be better to say "there is probably more than one tactically sound reply to any move I play, so just because he doesn't play the tactically sound move *I* expected, doesn't mean his reply is a tactical mistake." To me, the first attitude suggests you've memorized one way of playing and you're at sea when you see something new; the second attitude suggests you've studied some principles and patterns and are using those to calculate strong variations. You see the first attitude in games where two beginners have "memorized" a joseki, which they play out in the wrong order, but each player obligingly replies in a way that fixes his opponent's mistakes to arrive at the "right" result. You see it in the common examples (peppernut has kindly provided one!

) of people playing out a "joseki" they learned for the 3rd line on the 4th line, where it makes very little sense. You see it in all my 9x9 games, where I inevitably approach a 3-4 stone from the 2-4 point, under the impression that I'm making a 3-4 approach to a 5-4 stone.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:42 am

Koroviev wrote:
amnal wrote:
$$
$$ -------------------
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . .
$$ |. . 1 , . 4 . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
$$ |. . . . . . . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]
This sequence is bad, of course, and we might even say it's clearly wrong. White is making bad shape and probably doesn't have any very strong followups.
Can you explain why this is so bad? Thanks.

First, as amateurs, we can pretty well take it as bad on an empty board because Chen abandoned it and no other pro took it up.

But let's look at the position itself.

is very solid, and definitely keeps Black separated. From a shape standpoint, however,

is well placed to hinder White's eye formation on the side. It is a strike at the jaw of

and

. OC,

has been weakened. But Black can throw it away, and it may still serve as an impediment to White.

Next is where a certain amount of joseki knowledge can come in handy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 a . $$ |. . 1 , . 6 4 5 . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is joseki so far. The difference with the first diagram is the exchange of

and

, which leaves a cutting point at "a", a Black weakness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 7 b $$ |. . 1 , . 4 6 a . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . 5 . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

In a position like this, if

Black will not respond at "a", but will extend at

, jump to "b", or play somewhere else. The cutting point is gone forever.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:49 am

jts wrote:Amnal - Were the other examples of that joseki also in relation to a W 3-3 in the facing corner? (It seems suspicious that Chen chose the rare variation in a game with an uncommon fuseki by move ...)

The other two examples both have a 4-4 in that corner. The other corners are also different.

I do think this is rather interesting. There's little doubt that both conventional and accepted wisdom would say this move is bad, but what did Chen Zude see in it?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:01 am

amnal wrote: There's little doubt that both conventional and accepted wisdom would say this move is bad, but what did Chen Zude see in it?

He looked into the future and decided to troll L19.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:44 am

Amelia wrote:Just getting a feeling for "what do I do if my opponent pincers? Oh, I can invade the corner, never thought of that!" is quite enough at our low level, and for this joseki can kinda help, IMO. It doesn't mean that you're allowed to stop thinking though.

This expresses some of my thinking very well, however Bill and others have made some very powerful arguments against learning joseki, so I am going to back off from anything other than a superficial awareness of them.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:23 pm

PeterPeter wrote:
Amelia wrote:Just getting a feeling for "what do I do if my opponent pincers? Oh, I can invade the corner, never thought of that!" is quite enough at our low level, and for this joseki can kinda help, IMO. It doesn't mean that you're allowed to stop thinking though.
This expresses some of my thinking very well, however Bill and others have made some very powerful arguments against learning joseki, so I am going to back off from anything other than a superficial awareness of them.

It seem like I overdid it a bit.

Here was my suggestion, which may have gotten lost among other things that I wrote: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 69#p131369

daal · Post by **daal** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:58 am

gowan wrote: Start thinking about issues like dividing up the corner area, one player getting territory, the other outside power, or I get the right side, he gets the left side.

This seems like joseki in a nutshell. The only question left is: "how do I get what I want?"

Sometimes when action starts in a corner, I have an idea what I am striving for, but more often than not, my plans go horribly astray, and I find myself either giving up way too much or settling for something entirely different. It's these cases where Bill's advice to play around with the position after the game to see how things might have gone differently is probably most valuable.

Unfortunately for me personally, I find this extremely difficult, as I have so little trust in my own judgement of possible continuations that the "results" seem utterly random, but if you are able to play around with this sort of thing, my guess is that it has the potential to be highly beneficial.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:21 am

daal wrote:
gowan wrote: Start thinking about issues like dividing up the corner area, one player getting territory, the other outside power, or I get the right side, he gets the left side.
This seems like joseki in a nutshell. The only question left is: "how do I get what I want?"

Sometimes when action starts in a corner, I have an idea what I am striving for, but more often than not, my plans go horribly astray, and I find myself either giving up way too much or settling for something entirely different.

Agreed.

I am confident that I could invade at A and live in that corner, but I don't think I could prevent white getting a favourable left-facing wall out of it. So I would choose to play somewhere else.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:58 am

Although 'a' is natural and a straight-forward way to play, I am also reluctant to play this move in this situation. But it is not wrong and there are plenty of possibilities to hold White's Moyo in check.

The important part about not wanting to play 'a' in this situation is to think about not approaching White's corner stone in the first place.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is nothing wrong with this move. Later you can extend and approach at 'a' without the possibility to get pincered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When White pincers here, you have several possibilities ('a', jumping out at 'b', attaching on top of the pincer stone at 'c') but Tenuki is not an option, I think.
There are some very nice sgf-files on this forum on how Go Seigen would play in a similiar situation (how to counter San-Ren-Sei as White) but I couldn't find them : / In a nutshell they recommend to jump out here (to flatten White's Moyo) and pincer the white pincer stone.

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