149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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Uberdude
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Save my 2 stones to make some eyespace. The other choice here would be b13, which stops white getting the a11 hane in sente, but this c13 is better to make more space and also better for the outside, reinforcing the one point jump and taking a liberty from white so the c10 cut aji is increased and with d12 I can start to make a spare eye at d13.

Something I did wonder about is should I c16 as it's double sente and helps my eyespace a little bit, but decided no it is aji kesji as I lose aims like this for later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Keep this aji
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 |
$$ | . O 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . 7 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O 8 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure what I would do next as white nor what to expect from MW. Probably a tenuki for now. g14 cap doesn't seem so great as it pushes me to reduce white's moyo (probably I can't tenuki). Standard big opening moves like k17, o17, r10 seem playable.
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Magicwand
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i had this planned and wrote whole page on what i was going to do and lost it before... sorry.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . 2 . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i will comment my thoughts after my work
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Uberdude
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

Ok, that's a very solid move. k17 would ask for more but leave some invasion aji and would also make g14 more sente for me. It's another BIG DECISION TIME so I will slow down from this crazy blitzing I've been doing. There are two big places to my eye: the right side and top right corner. I suppose there is also the question of maybe I should c16 now that he's defended tightly at j17 so that invasion aji starting with h17 is very unlikely to be useful.

If on the right then it's q10 or r10 and I have to decide between 3rd line for territory and 4th line for moyo. I'm always rather apprehensive of q10 as there are still invasions to both sides so it doesn't actually make much solid territory. White's j8 is well placed to counter any potential for territory in the n8 area should white live on the right side and I get a 4th line wall.

For the corner my move is o17: it develops the corner stone and stops white approach there. This seems more Korean style to q10's Japanese style. Having an extra corner stone also means I can play more powerfully when white likely comes into the side, e.g. white's jump to a isn't sente anymore so :b47: is harder for white to deal with. If he only makes the safe 2 space extension for 46 then I am happy to kosumi in corner for good profit and keep his group cramped.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . a . 6 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose this is a good time to count to help come up with a plan, but counting is boring so I'll do that later.
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by drmwc »

Ubderdude:

Uberdude wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually playing the jump out and slide is bad as you plan to continue with the d11 press and losing the option of 3-3 invasion is bad, but here my plan is to settle on the side as quickly as possible and this enlarges my eyespace in sente (white pretty much has to answer at 3-3) and prevents white playing c15 (or rather if white does c15 it is not good as I can block at b15 which makes good eyeshape, whereas without the slide if white c15 I have to descend to b14 and then my eyespace is a lot worse if I b16 later; compare the 2 diagrams below (this is a very common shape, of course deciding whether to lose the 3-3 invasion aji for the aditional eyeshape is a tough choice that is highly situation dependent).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Eye at a15.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 No eyes, just 1st line false eye rubbish
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 8 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What would you have done if MW had played here with 34?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you reply at a, it potentially becomes similar to the duff line for B you gave. (Although it's better for B than the duff line, since B tenukis in the duff line.)
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Uberdude
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

@drmwc:
Yes, that's an annoying good move that's hard to find a good answer to locally: if I descend or bump my eyespace is reduce in sente compared to what I got in the game. I hadn't decided at the time what to do and just hoped Magicwand didn't play it :) . Possibly hane and then crude ataris to go for the outside? I do have the ladder to lower right (it just misses j9) so perhaps double hane at a is possible, though I can't yet find a way to deal with white cut and extend to g16 so maybe I just have to nobi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 O 9 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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hyperpape
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by hyperpape »

@Uberdude
Thanks for the explanation of O17 in this position. It's surprisingly simple, but I'd never understood that tradeoff.
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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I did that "I can't decide on the perfect move so I didn't play" thing again... And counting is boring so I didn't do that. So I'll just play the move I want to as Takemiya recommends. I decided early on that I didn't want to play o17: the right is a wider area and I should be happy to give the top to white if I get the right. So then the hard decision was this low r10 or high q10? The downside of the low is this cap is nice for white (but when?) and to be honest I don't know how I will respond and I hope he doesn't get this point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Annoying cap
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . W , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he approaches at the top and plays this joseki, then probably I will play the cap point to grow my territory (can he still invade either side?) and reduce his centre potential. The top side is now his points, though in the future I can look to reduce around a but must be careful he doesn't give up the top side territory in exchange for a powerful attack on my reducing group. I should count this, but can't be bothered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top territory, me side
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . 7 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . 8 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or maybe he jumps instead of slide. If I answer at a I have a nasty shape weakness around b with the low r10 so in this respect q10 is better. But probably I will answer at c to get the corner which is big and looks forward to invading the top side at d so those aren't his points yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . d . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Grabbing the corner is also nice as it means if I defend my territory on the side it's not building something fake that he can destroy with 3-3 invasion: :b49: is bad as :w50: is perfect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Defending territory with a hole in it sucks
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . 0 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Kirby
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

@Uberdude:
Based on your explanation, this sounds undesirable for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Could you contrast this with this diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In particular, is it the capping move that makes the first diagram's reduction move severe?
be immersed
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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

@Kirby:
In the first diagram if I push up then I hurt my own 47 stone, it has become a liability. There is a shape problem at a. It does separate white's stick, but I don't think I can profitably attack it really.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With the corner, I could just push and then connect (with bad aji) on the side to make some points. Those pushes help me solidify the lower right area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Magicwand
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Dragon Pie
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Dragon Pie »

To Uberdude:

I guess it would make more sense if you played high with your last move, but what do you think of the attachment to white's approach? I'd want to play that more than the moves that you showed considering that white's already relatively strong and it seems to decrease his moyo prospects while expanding blacks. And J17 looks a bit misplaced.

What are your thoughts about the attachment?
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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned...
I did actually wonder about playing p10 now as it's such a key point but decided it was excessively eccentric (if white takes corner I build wall on right which seems ok, but double approach gets messy and doesn't seem clearly good for me).

@Dragon Pie:

Yes, that attachment, which is usually a bad amateur-style move (particular the attach and extend rather than corner block), does look plausible here with the idea being white is already strong on the top side, but I'll stick with my instinct and keep things a bit more unsettled with the simple jump.
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Dragon Pie »

To Uberdude
Thanks for the reply. It kind of reminds me of how similarly, when a professional is playing with the sanrensei and they're approached, they are much less likely to pincer than an amateur and will instead be more likely to do a one space jump. Depending on what's played, black may still have follow ups that grow his influence and he also might be able to get some corner territory and his opponent may damage his own territory with an early invasion generally, his position seems more flexible.

But, to my judgement, being pincered twice and white living in the corner looked terrible for black and his moyo felt overwhelming. That stronger players didn't feel the same way was quite a revelation to me.
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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Uberdude »

Dragon Pie wrote:To Uberdude
Thanks for the reply. It kind of reminds me of how similarly, when a professional is playing with the sanrensei and they're approached, they are much less likely to pincer than an amateur and will instead be more likely to do a one space jump. Depending on what's played, black may still have follow ups that grow his influence and he also might be able to get some corner territory and his opponent may damage his own territory with an early invasion generally, his position seems more flexible.

But, to my judgement, being pincered twice and white living in the corner looked terrible for black and his moyo felt overwhelming. That stronger players didn't feel the same way was quite a revelation to me.


I wasn't actually aware one space jump was more common in san ren sei than one space pincer, but GoGoD shows you are right by a factor of almost 3 to 1. I'm happy to play or play against either. For sure losing sente when white takes the corner after pincer is a downside. I suppose this ties in with Go Seigen's view that if black answers with the jump white should approach the other corner rather than help his approach stone and give black sente to play on the other side and grow the moyo.

In last para you mean terrible for white? I too remember thinking the same, but then realising a well placed reduction a little to the right of tengen gives white a perfectly playable position.
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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by Dragon Pie »

To Uberdude:
I saw a go lecture somewhere or read somewhere, either baduk movies or KGS in which somebody had analyzed that white didn't win very often when he approached and left one stone after the approach and the black jump, but suddenly, after doing it to both sides, white's win percentage was higher. I'll try to find it. It was suggesting that pros play sanrensei less because of this.

I haven't tried the strategy, but I was thinking of finding some go games with these strategies to study to see how they handled it on both sides.
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