149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:58 pm

Not for either player:

My candidate for next move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It interferes with black's development of the right side, and prepares to support an invasion of the lower side.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:14 pm

@Joaz

Dragon Pie · Post by **Dragon Pie** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:26 am

Loons wrote:@Joaz
I worry about that shoulder hit feeling heavy

Edit:
To me black's sente invasion of the left was too good.

My move is R5. Perhaps black will be overconcentrated. It feels desperate.

To me, J8 looks well enough placed to provide some support. But, if he's worried about being heavy, white can respond lightly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . a . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 1 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . 7 5 . b . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I do feel like black has a lot of good points to play if a sequence like this comes to fruition. I'd feel pretty good about this as black. And I'd feel good as black getting to jump up to p10, too.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:20 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tooveli · Post by **Tooveli** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:42 am

Uberdude had just managed to pick up the pace a little and magicwand goes and does that ... :roll:

Edit: unhidden due to Uberdude's lightning speed.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:47 am

Hoho, seems Magicwand is in funky moves mode (see game with drmwc). I'm not bamboozled by funky jumps as I quite like to play them myself for a laugh. My first thought is this gives me a good excuse to play the p10 I wanted to, this feels nice to come up high to stop his centre potential getting out of hand and also reinforce my territory to both sides and stop all those annoying should hit and cap variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Something I have to bear in mind is g14 might be his sente. Locally I don't mind answering it so much as it reduces his area around f10, but combined with n14 it does grow the top quite nicely.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . 8 . . . . . 6 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white did the one point jump I was actually thinking my jump to the corner could be a bit slow what with the focus on the centre in this game, in which case I was considering making this corner exchange and then the cap (despite the shape problems I mentioned earlier).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O 7 . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

His large knight's jump gets ahead in this race, making it harder for me to cap, but as a downside it is thinner. So what happens if I do the kick? If he stands up then he is happy to solidify his jump (though maybe it's a bit slow? with o16 already in place he could jump to n13) and I am happy that he didn't descend so my corner territory is more secure (there is still aji at 3-3 point though, but using that hurts his top side).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Extend up $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O 7 . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . 8 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or will he extend down? This way he keeps up the damage to my corner but there is some weakness in his jump though it's not exactly clear how to exploit that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Extend down $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O 7 . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pushing in like this means the corner block is sente for the n17 cut which doesn't capture anything yet (he can crawl along 2nd line), but with support around l14 (which is a nice reduction point to aim at) this cut could be fun. Of course if the cut is good he might just sacrifice 2 stones. But the exchanges of 49 - 52 feel pretty crappy as they don't gain me much and make him thicker.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm47 Chug chug $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 7 . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O 1 . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . 4 3 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There could be more exciting things like this, but the atari of 52 is rather painful. If white stands at a then I can run away at b, if hane at c then I block at d and can make a ko. This feels more dangerous for black than white, though white's group to the right doesn't have 2 eyes either so he has to be a little careful, so I probably won't do something like this directly, but rather aim to play some reducing moves around the l13 area which aim at this sort of thing as a followup if ignored.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm47 Boom boom $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O 9 . 5 8 O 1 . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . a c d . 4 3 7 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As for what to play, time for a ponder...

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:08 am

As this game is open book/database I thought I'd check GoGoD for funky jumps in this shape and found this rather amusing game of Honinbo Shusai giving Segoe Kensaku 3 stones in 1910 and doing a double funky jump:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm25 Shusai (W) vs Segoe, 3h, B+Res $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , 8 . 9 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . O . . O , O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's reassuring to find that I am in the company of Segoe in thinking the corner kick and one point jump on the side are the key points of such a position.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:48 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:52 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:42 pm

@the players

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 am

@Loons

Loons wrote:@the players
N14/P10 exchange THEN probe?

You think it is too late? I am minded to agree with you. If I were white I might earlier probe at r4 aiming to make this ko aji in the corner to use later. It's quite a damaging ko for black to lose. Black might not connect solidly for :b47:

but that leaves weaknesses to exploit. And not turning for :b49:

but instead descent in the corner aiming to kill looks unlikely to succeed. Maybe p10 could help with the kill, but it still looks hard so I think I might have r4 even in the game. If I choose the corner it's very big with the side now I've got p10, and it's not easy for white to live on the lower side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X 9 . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . 7 6 . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d e . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And if white really wants to humiliate black into overconcentration this would be perfect so black would have to find a way to resist (e.g. claim that 47 reduced white space on side so block corner instead of 49 and try to kill, or not play 47 in the first place):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X 6 . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . 4 3 . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm glad I got p10

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:50 am

So this is one of the standard probes against a high (and low) shimari. Being between the lower side and the corner, it is asking me if I want to emphasise the lower side or corner. The reason I, as white, would probably have chosen r4 instead as the probe is that one asks whether black wants the corner or right side and it just vaguely feels like the right side is a wider and thinner area for black so it would be easier for white to settle there than on the lower side (compared squared and triangled area below), though a downside of the lower side is l4 is 4th line so it's easier to slide under it for a base and p10 does make the right stronger (e.g. easier to answer r9 attachment).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Which side easier to settle if black takes corner? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . S S . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . S S . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . S S . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X S S . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . T T T T X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . T T T T . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So with his attachment, if I want to play thickly and take the outside I can nobi. He would then probably tenuki, and later he can live in the corner with a tripod group. Usually this feels a bit easy going on white as he doesn't have to work very hard to live, but I actually get a lot of territory on the lower side and right side so I am seriously considering this. A note that in terms of yose :b55:

should be at :b57:

so that white only get 2 instead of 4 corner points, but then white gets a push at s4 and a peep at r6 and maybe r6 is useful (I decided it was in this OGS game of mine). For his tenuki after the nobi white could set about gently reducing my area now that he has established the right to live in the corner later (it's a 26 point yose).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Nobi outside -> tripod group. $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , 3 7 . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . 1 X 2 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 6 . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another choice is to nobi into the corner, so obviously he can't live there now. It feels passive and he can again just tenuki treating it as a forcing exchange (though if he doesn't do something with his q2 stone later then it become aji keshi / mochikomi as he lost the chance to r4). The virtue of the nobi instead of hane in corner is it is very solid so eliminates his forcing moves (e.g. p3) so can actually be a more agressive move if I intend to kill. Later, or now, he can then try to make sabaki on the lower side. If he hanes out I won't answer on top at p4 as that just helps him make eye shape when he extends to o3 so I would pincer and attack. Below shows one instinctive line: he can make one eye in sente on the side and then runs out (note :w58:

tesuji, if just o2 then my p1 would usually mean this is only one eye in gote as threatens r1 link up, though actually as it's the corner he has s1 in sente to stop that) . Do I think I can kill, or do I profit enough from the chase? If I can wreck his centre moyo in the chase that'd be great. One eye in sente is a bit annoying if I want to kill so maybe I could play 53 at 56 but then he gets better shape on the outside.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Nobi inside $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . 5 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . 3 4 2 X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 . . O 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course instead of denying him two eyes with 61 and chasing I could seal in sente, or else just tenuki and play something in the centre which may well be sente as it means the lines where he runs out he now dies.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm59 Nobi inside contd. $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . X . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . 3 . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe a cool leaning attack?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm64 Tesuji power?! $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . 3 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . 1 O X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . X . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In fact white does need the p1 tesuji, as s1 for s3 is a bad exchange as it means I have this clamp which seems to work as r4 is no longer atari (Hmm, but white can p5 before s1, still it's interesting to note how s3 helps me). Also :w54:

could be at 55 and then black cuts and white has the m3 cut but it seems black can manage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Nobi inside no p1 $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . 5 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . 3 4 2 X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 0 . O 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Nobi inside no p1 CLAMP POWER! $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . 5 4 X 9 . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . X . 6 8 0 a . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . X O O X X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 2 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another choice is to hane in the corner. The difference with the nobi is white gets p3 in sente and is thus first to extend along the side to make sabaki, perhaps as below. Of course the plus over the nobi is I can capture q2 so he has a bit less eyespace to the right, but with the hanging connection of :w56:

his shape is eye-rich so this looks good for white. Maybe I can play :b53:

at 56, but if I'm resorting to such desperate measures already it seems like a failure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Hane inside -> lower side sabaki $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . 5 4 . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . 8 . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The final choice (other than tenuki) is hane outside and then white could crosscut to get some forcing moves on the outside and then do something on the lower side, or hane in the corner to try to live there (or tenuki and decide later).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Hane outside, crosscut for outside $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . 4 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Hane outside, hane for corner $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . 3 . 5 . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The corner is not locally alive, but I have some cuts which make killing hard. I'd have to read carefully before embarking on this adventure, and the aji is very bad so white need not go on it but play some tesuji like m4 which is probably hard to answer without making the kill collapse.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm54 $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . 7 4 5 . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X 3 2 . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . X 1 X . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X O 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm64 $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . 0 8 X O X . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . 9 7 X O X . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . 6 5 X O O 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm74 (77 isn't p7 good shape to take W liberty) $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . 6 . . X X . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . 5 4 . O X O . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . 3 X X X O X . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . 1 O O X O X . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . 7 X O X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 2 8 X O . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm84 $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . X . . X X . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . O X . O X O . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . O X X X O X . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . 5 3 1 O X O X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 4 X O X X X O . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O X X . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But even if I do kill this doesn't look like a success as I got pushed down to the 2nd line in sente and l4 got munched. :sad:

So, decisions, decision... :scratch:

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:32 am

So far no one has mentioned reducing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . 2 . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a standard reduction on the right side, and :b49:

is a standard reply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . 5 . 1 . 2 . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . 3 . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If the play went this way, if I were White I would feel a lot better.

OC, Black is not going to play this way. :b51:

looks particularly passive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . 2 . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can attack strongly, as in this diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . a . B , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , B . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This reduction, on the sector line between the two :bc:

stones, is lighter. It supports an invasion of the right side, further reduction of the bottom side, or enlarging White's central framework at "a".

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:52 pm

It seems we need to organize some popular demand again!

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