Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

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Shaddy
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Re: #11

Post by Shaddy »

Dragon Pie wrote:
Which is actually interesting because my favorite is when I get the best of both worlds and get to build influence with some solid points in hand. That's my favorite.


@Dragon Pie:

This is known as being ahead :tmbup:
Amelia
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Amelia »

@Uberdude
Black's plan to approach both the bottom right and top left sounds like it would allow black to build a big moyo all while white is building his own. Those extensions, if he does get them, look like they would work pretty well with his shimari as well. Can you elaborate a bit why this is not a good trade for black? Is it because white is likely to get in the way of black's plan and get a superior result? Or is it because a position like this is in general better for white than for black, even if white doesn't bother to get in the way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Dragon Pie
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#13

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered approaching the bottom right corner thinking that it would be sente because he wouldn't want to be double approached, but then I considered that the bottom isn't the most important area of the board right now and I believe that should make that approach gote even considering my surrounding stones.

If we had played the typical joseki on the lower left out, white's stones would have influence, but they wouldn't be particularly thick. Right now, with my opponents last move that felt slow to me, his have become thick. And as such, I've decided that it's more important to first expand along the top as that intersects with the left. I think that something like a pincer would play into my hands the joseki as diving into the corner would lead to a joseki that helps mute his influence a bit. Either way, that's definitely the important area right now. I also considered a splitting move on the left, but I've had a habit of being jealous of my opponents territory in the past and I think that's a reasonable move, but I'm trying to get over that habit.

If he simply jumps or keima's here, I will probably fall back to the star point and get my double wing. His left side still feels open for invasion after a move like that, so I'm not sure of the best response for white here. Maybe he'll have to add a move to that side after I get my double wing and I'll be able to approach his other 4-4 point.


@Shaddy
I feel like I'm ahead as I felt like his last move was slow, but it was also thick and I'm doing my best to respect that. But I am happy with my position. His move is also definitely considered joseki as well, but I wouldn't have played it just yet.
emerus
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Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I should be more clear with my intentions in these games but my fear is second guessing myself and looking ridiculous. :)

This cap jumps out to me, we're both making our spheres of influence and this is the vital point for that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . c . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These are the moves that I considered, with the top right and left side in mind. I liked the idea of 'c' because of ko variations but feel that I'm behind if white simply takes the corner. With 'a', I have some development on the left but it isn't very expansive and feels slow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Now what?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Tenuki was actually my first thought - to keep the top and right side miai and fight my way out of the corner but black will get to play on both the top and the left and I'm without much potential to develop.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 What I expect:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 , . . . 7 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll probe, expected him to answer one point above :w16:, then I will probe the corner again at s16. I'll continue reading to see how I can get the last big point of a/b. Still treating them as miai.
Uberdude
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Uberdude »

@Amelia

Amelia wrote:@Uberdude
Black's plan to approach both the bottom right and top left sounds like it would allow black to build a big moyo all while white is building his own. Those extensions, if he does get them, look like they would work pretty well with his shimari as well. Can you elaborate a bit why this is not a good trade for black? Is it because white is likely to get in the way of black's plan and get a superior result? Or is it because a position like this is in general better for white than for black, even if white doesn't bother to get in the way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . a . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . B . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Amelia, my dislike of giving white the turn wasn't really based on such a long-term expected continuation, it's more just a feeling of what is urgent and how the turn makes white thick and have territory potential on the left instead of a floaty influence group that can even be attacked later. As you say in your diagram white has been overly obedient, I expect he would resist black's plans more.

Also I noticed you made a common beginner mistake in your diagram, you have played the marked slides and then made 3 space extensions. This is bad because the 3 space extensions have an invasion at a. If white invades at a it is good to have the flexibility to be able to sacrifice the approach stone by jumping into the 3-3 point in the corner, the slide removes this option so the approach stone and slide become heavy (you can't easily sacrifice it by playing 3-3). So either don't slide and make a 3 space extension (to 4th line is normal, but 3rd line is not awful), or do slide and make the tighter 2 space extension on 3rd line.
Dragon Pie
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#15

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Even with his newfound thickness on the bottom left, I think that his move is usually played when he's already got an extension of some sorts on the left hand side. I think it is good for me to go ahead and take away his chance to extend on that side. I played away from my recent stone, and maybe he'll attempt to attack it in some way. Depending on how he tries to attack it, I'll sacrifice it, settle it quickly or fight. I'll decide when the time comes, but it's a pretty flexible stone. His corner is still open at this time. I also played a bit further from the wall on the bottom left so as to respect his thickness.
emerus
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Push him into my thickness. Next I'll either defend my corner or play on the right side.
Dragon Pie
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He had no choice. He really had to push this way towards his thickness, though I was also imagining that he might cap. Right now, few moves come to mind. I hesitate to play something like the two space extension along the edge as I feel like he'd still stand to gain on the outside with a capping move and a descent at B5 hurts both the corner and the extension.

I could try jumping towards his wall with something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Later, I might get to play at a to stabilize my group a bit. Or I could jump out to b.

If I felt like later I could destabilize his group on the bottom left, I might play this way, but I don't see that happening.

I could just jump out now. With the thought that later getting a two space extension in would be big. If he played to remove it, a capping move feels nice to limit his potential there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After I jump, maybe he could still cap me.

After all, I'll still be behind sector lines:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN F15 G4}[/go]


I prefer being the one to control the center in this game, so perhaps I could consider the two space jump. The problem with that is that black's cap doesn't feel very good after white extends from his bottom position. Of course, my stone will have already done it's job by then in preventing black from playing there, so I imagine that both of us would ignore those stones for a bit and it'll be a good question of timing as to when to help them. I'll try to play moves that will allow for them to exert useful influence in the center and my opponent will doubtless try to make the position such that it makes sense to attack them.


So that's it then. Let's give it a shot!

But first, he'll likely tenuki because it isn't profitable to attack those stones just yet, so let's examine what he can do against my approach stone:

One thought for many people would be to kick it to make it heavy and that is a possibility here, but my natural response means that he either has to respond at :w3: or a. :w3: closes the corner, though there is certainly still some aji there, but black is all to happy to get an extension in and white, while possibly getting the corner will lose his chance to attack black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he pincers, whatever the pincer, I might just take the corner or I might play elsewhere even a counter pincer with the knowledge that my stone still has some aji that will be a nuisance to him or he'll have to play some slow moves to kill it.
emerus
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll add more about what I expect(ed) to happen in a while but this is my move.

"Your opponents good point is your good point."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . T . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: serves to expand his moyo while also giving his left-side group a place to run towards. Next :et: could be big for black.
Dragon Pie
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like his move. A pincer any tighter and I would probably just tenuki or even extend on that side and make him deal with the aji. Any looser and I really have nothing to worry about. It's possible that I could still do a two space jump towards his stone and let him take that stone and the corner with a couple move moves. I could try tenuki to the upper right and approach which is surely big. Anyhow, let's do some analysis of this position. Let's go back. and assume that the F15 F17 exchange wasn't made. And maybe instead, he played his current move and I chose to invade, he wouldn't play :w6:, so it looks misplaced to my eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But like I said, I felt like his last move was a good one. His corner is still open though and that tenuki to the bottom right corner looks appetizing. Earlier, a double approach on that corner didn't look quite as big as usual because the bottom isn't particularly large, but it's looking bigger now. If I could invade the corner in the top left sente, I'd probably just do that. Make no mistake that the two space extension on the top is big too. Imagine if white gets that move.

Compare:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . W . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Versus:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . B . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That two space extension gives a lot more aji to my previous approach move.

But, compare this difference as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


versus:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is also a very big difference.

So, if I approach the bottom right and he takes the other big point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Versus:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, if he responds to either, I'm happy with the sente exchange and to get the other big point as well.

I decided to go with my move because it feels bigger to me. I've learned not to underestimate a move like the one I showed though. Even after that move, my previous approach move is still a nuisance to him. If I do better at timing than him, I'll save it at the most opportune time and leave him annoyed. Of course, a lot of strength is timing and judgement.
emerus
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Can't let black get this point, it would strengthen his lone top stone while expanding his moyo. Next, he could re-approach my corner or slide at d18 to take most of my territory away.

White's main strength right now is thickness and potential to push black around. For now I'll just patiently wait for that opportunity.
Dragon Pie
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I figured that he'd play this way. But, I feel satisfied that black is in good shape here.

At this point in the game, I don't see him making any real territory anywhere except the top and top left corner. That's perhaps 50 or generously 60 points of territory. My bottom right is probably about 12, my top right is about 13. I have about 25 points with the corner, so I'd just have to hope for about 25 or 35 more points on the rest of the board to out score that moyo if he find a way to enclose the entire thing. Anyhow, because he'll probably make a few points somewhere else on this board, I think I've got to try for about that many to stay up in this game. I still feel like I'm ahead.
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Shaddy
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Shaddy »

I think Black should immediately have made a large life on top. White'd have a big problem: his territory's gone, his thickness isn't that useful. Black would have big cash and basically only has to live with his two weak stones to win.
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Attaching to the stronger stone must be right here.

I really want to get sente out of this, and my plan to do that is to make blacks lower side stone weak.
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like he's ok with strengthening my stones that comprise my right side moyo in order to weaken my other stone that's closer to his supporting stones on the left. This is probably the best idea for white and I don't like the idea of my right side feeling cramped as it I think it will. Like always, I really would like to get sente to do something about his moyo, but the plus side is that after this sort of exchange, I can probably count on more territory on my right side and it'll be harder to reduce. Of course, he can solidify his corner here a bit, too. I do wish the bottom was more interesting. It would make my double approach better.

I considered other moves that might throw a wrench into his thinking like the wedge, but he has the ladder and I don't see anything that looks particularly promising coming from a move like that. The truth is that I can be happy to get to develop on both sides while getting my right side strengthened for me. It's happiest when the opponent does your work for you.
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