Raising the Standard of Western Go

[logan]

Yes, English problem books have long way to go to match the best Eastern problem books. And over 95% of the classic texts still haven't even been translated! Prices are horrible in West too. There are so many improvements left for Western problems books, I don't even know where to begin...

[Bartleby]

In an ideal world, I agree that having cheaper books available in English would be nice. But Go books are very much a fringe market in the West. I doubt the profit margin is very high (where it exists at all) for translations of CJK books into English. I don't think we can ignore the economic realities when thinking about what we want. Wanting cheap Go books in a small market is just not realistic. Even chess books (and the chess book market is many, many times bigger than the Go market in the West) is sufficiently small that chess books are expensive (often $20 plus for a paperback). Actually, given the very small size of the Western Go market, I think Go books are suprisingly cheap, largely due to the gallant efforts of a few translators/publishers/importers whose motives are at least partly altruistic.

Except for the strongest players, who has worked through all of the good problem collections easily available in the U.S., for example? (And I only use U.S. as an example because I'm not as familiar with the situation in other Western countries.) You can buy both Lee Chang Ho problem series at Yellow Mountain Imports for around $40 each, so for $80 you can get enough problems to take you at least to low dan level. The Kiseido translations of the Japanese pocket books for higher dan players can probably take you a bit higher. And anyone who has gotten past the low to mid-dan level can, with a little patience and ingenuity (like group orders to minimize shipping costs), and perhaps at a modest premium (e.g., ordering from Amazon.jp) get some life & death and tesuji problem books at a higher level.

I think (and of course reasonable minds might disagree) that we are probably getting to the point where there are enough problem and instructional books in English for everyone but the most serious high dans (and such players will probably not find too many books for them in Eastern countries either). What is mainly missing at this point are Go culture books (books about historic players and matches) and annotated game collections, and John Fairbairn's recent experiences suggest to me that the market for such books is very soft.

I would guess there are probably enough books availabe to Westerners right now for them to get as far as book knowledge can take them. The real problem with Go in the West is the small number of people who are actually interested in the game, and the lack of a support network and access to very strong players for those who are interested.

[RobertJasiek]

Problem books: there are any number of life+death, tsumego and shape-orientated tesuji books, but problems books about all other topics are infrequent or, where available, often of rather low quality of contents. So I would understand a demand for a greater variety of problem books. Restricted availability is also an issue, but only secondary; if one really searches, one will also find books.

Go theory books: at first glance, there seem to be lots of books, but a closer look at English books reveals many big gaps of or in topics. This is especially so for many middle game topics. E.g., there is essentially nothing on boundary play (other than reductions) during the middle game. There is not even a comprehensive book on middle game move types (other than tesuji), not to mention move sequences (and how to construct them, unless haengma is the only issue). English books on ko teach only about 20% of what a 3d should know. A book on middle game josekis (other than standard corner enclosure josekis)? Non-existent. Etc.

[SoDesuNe]

Except for the strongest players, who has worked through all of the good problem collections easily available in the U.S., for example? (And I only use U.S. as an example because I'm not as familiar with the situation in other Western countries.)

Yeah, in Europe my feeling is that you have a harder time getting all the good problem books.
For instance the YCH series is nowhere to be found. There was a swedish shope once who listed these books but shipping was quite expensive and I think the shop does not exists anymore.

Some concrete examples of books, I'd like to be able to buy from Europe without paying horrendous shipping costs:
- both YCH series (http://senseis.xmp.net/?LiChangHoJingjiangWeiqiSihuo | http://senseis.xmp.net/?LiChangHoJingjiangWeiqiShoujin)
- Weiqi Life and Death 1000 Problems (http://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiLifeAndDeath1000Problems)
- Weiqi Life and Death Drills (http://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiLifeAndDeathDrills)
- Go/Segeo Tesuji Dictionary [Yutopian has these]
- all the classical problem collections (Gengen Gokyo, Gokyo Shumyo, Gokyo Seimyo (you can download this book from some japanese library, see Sensei's Libray), Guanzi Pu, Shikatsu Miyoki) [I know John Fairbairn made a very good Kindle book regarding the Gengen Gokyo but I would prefer a real book for problems]
- Maeda Tsumego (all three books) [although I guess these are out of print]
- I read in tchan's blog about highly esteemed books from Kada Katsuji but I guess those are also out of print
- This: http://www.h-eba.com/heba/JITEN/jiten0-1.html in book form

Overall the european-problem-book-situation (around Germany at least) is "okay" (depending on your level and aspirations) with available copies of the Graded Go Problems for Beginners and for Dan Players series, Get Strong at Tesuji, Essential Life-and-Death, Rescue and Capture, Life and Death - Intermediate Level Problems, Get Strong at the Opening and 501 Opening Problems. These are all good books but what's definitely missing is a problem book dealing with common corner shapes (meaning: not 1001 Life-and-Death Problems) and way more variaty of Tesuji problems (personally I don't like 501 Tesuji Problems).

[HermanHiddema]

Reference: viewtopic.php?p=132869#p132869

The books that would really raise the standard of Western go weren't what the publishers were concerned with

I agree, but would appreciate further input from you: which kinds of books, do you think, can really raise the standard of Western go?

None. The standard of Western go is not being held back by lack of books.

The standard of western is held back by lack of a structured program aimed at turning children into professionals. A go school with professional level teachers where groups of kids spend many hours a day, every day, learning go. And such a school is impossible until it is considered acceptable in Western culture to have your kids spend many hours a day, every day, learning go.

Making thousands of well written books on every possible go related topic available would not have a significant impact on the level of western play.

[John Fairbairn]

Why does the "standard of western go" have to be equated to the "level of western play", and in particular to the number of pros?

It may well be desirable to nurture pros, but go can be enjoyed or appreciated in ways other than playing at pro level, and for almost all of us that will have to be the case anyway. If books or any other activities stimulate ordinary people into understanding the game, appreciating the finer points and building up respect for the achievements of better players, they will eventually help create an environment in which tadpoles can become frogs.

I believe there is an analogy from tennis and baseball. The introduction of aluminium bats almost overnight transformed the standard of tennis/baseball for almost every player not good enough to be a pro. They did not make pros any better relative to each other, and in baseball aluminium bats were even banned for pros. But now that a young kid can swing for the fences with his alloy bat and possibly reach them, I'd guess that he gets a greater enjoyment out of baseball, appreciates the pros' efforts better, and so is more likely to support the pro game.

[RobertJasiek]

YCH series

They were available for incredibly low prices at big tournaments a few years ago. So look around and good luck!

problem book dealing with common corner shapes

Read ISBN 8971865822 by Seolim Publishing Co., Vol. 16 of some series.

http://books.google.de/books/about/%EC% ... edir_esc=y

Easy looking shapes, but partly surprisingly hard. Has all the corner shapes you need. Suitable for 5k - 5d.

[HermanHiddema]

Why does the "standard of western go" have to be equated to the "level of western play", and in particular to the number of pros?

I equate "standard of western go" with "level of western play" because that is how I interpret the expression. Not because I think having pros is the most important aspect of western go, but simply because I think that is what those words mean. Personally, I think expanding the playing population and maximizing the enjoyment of the players are the most important goals. Those are certainly the goals I expend my own efforts on. Lets have as many people as possible enjoy playing go as much as possible.

[RobertJasiek]

The standard of Western go is not being held back by lack of books. [...] Making thousands of well written books on every possible go related topic available would not have a significant impact on the level of western play.

I could not disagree more. (JFTR, go books is one, but not the only factor. Not each player profits from good books, but many do.)

The standard of western is held back by lack of a structured program aimed at turning children into professionals.

Such (or available also for adults) can also be good for raising the standard of Western go. As could be a successful spreading of go as a mass culture in every Western country.

[Uberdude]

I don't feel my improvement at Go is held back by a lack of books, but my being too lazy to do loads of tsumego to improve my reading.

[Javaness2]

I agree with Charles.

To reach 1 dan, through literature, you are supposed to buy a series of books. To reach 10 kyu or 5 kyu, I don't think you could give a series of books aiming at that level. Wouldn't it be nice to have something like a step by step course
e.g. Techniques in Go 30-20k , Techniques in Go 20-10k , Techniques in Go 10-5k, etc

That's probably more use than buying books one by one from the internet - I guess most of us aren't lucky enough to have a nearby bookshop selling paper books anymore.

This might raise the general level a little. It probably wouldn't have a spectacular effect though!

[Bill Spight]

I agree with Charles.

To reach 1 dan, through literature, you are supposed to buy a series of books. To reach 10 kyu or 5 kyu, I don't think you could give a series of books aiming at that level. Wouldn't it be nice to have something like a step by step course
e.g. Techniques in Go 30-20k , Techniques in Go 20-10k , Techniques in Go 10-5k, etc

That's probably more use than buying books one by one from the internet - I guess most of us aren't lucky enough to have a nearby bookshop selling paper books anymore.

This might raise the general level a little. It probably wouldn't have a spectacular effect though!

When I was learning go in Japan, there were books aimed at absolute beginners, akin to Lasker's book or Iwamoto's book in English. Those books aside, there was next to nothing aimed at DDKs. Maeda's tsumego series started at 10 kyu. Sakata's Killer of Go series was also SDK material. In Takagawa's Go Reader he has a nice feature of commenting on kyu games. IIRC, they all were SDK games, around 4 kyu. It is not easy to write for DDKs. What are they thinking?

My impression is that things have changed. You have Graded Go Problems, for instance. And, I suppose, Janice Kim's books (which I have never looked at, sorry to say). Still, it boggles my mind to try to think, well this is a 25 kyu technique and that is a 15 kyu technique.

[RobertJasiek]

It is not easy to write for DDKs. What are they thinking?

For many years, one of the greatest mysteries was: "What the heck did I think as DDK? I can't remember!" Well, there was one game of mine, and I discovered the incredible: both players had overlooked an "obvious" killing cut and played as if it did not exist;) (I do recall a 3d kibitz commenting while we were playing: "This is the tournament's most exciting game!" Now I understand the true meaning of his comment...) As I learnt later by studying DDK games, this is very typical. To write for DDK, the best way is to study their games carefully!

[deja]

It is not easy to write for DDKs. What are they thinking?

That's easy: What the hell am I suppose do now?

[oren]

It is not easy to write for DDKs. What are they thinking?

That's easy: What the hell am I suppose do now?

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