An e-mail to admin concerning "Herod"

[Horibe]

I am going to have to start ignoring this thread. I keep pulling myself in. OTOH, some of my previous remarks seemed to be helpful.

How hard would it be for the admin to send a private message to the player who was perhaps the butt of some sexist remarks and ask, "Is that guy bothering you?"

Just to be clear, huge respect for Bill and his contributions to this thread, but I do not agree with this solution.

I think the comment, in a public forum was horribly sexist. Imagine if such a remark was made about a racial/ethnic stereotype - no bag of emoticons could make the remark ok.

Sure, there are women who might not think this is a big deal, and if they knew the person might laugh it off. But asking that one woman is problematic. First of all, it puts the burden on her to be "that woman" who cannot take a "joke" and gets the "hilarious" guy in trouble. Second, it does nothing for the rest of the women watching who are appalled. Third, the confirmation delay will encourage other "humorists" to make lighthearted mysoginist remarks because anything unfunny, or painful about this can be emoticonned away. Finally, a conversation about the appropriateness of the remark may well ensue in the meantime with both sides saying things that neither want to hear and have nothing to do with go.

[Uberdude]

In a normal game the players can't see the kibitz (unless they look back at it after the game is over) so the admin's job is not to protect the player from things they can't see, but to protect the perceived sensibilities of fellow observers. In fact this game in question was the special Teaching game type so the players could see kibitz, but that's abnormal.

Also if I were concentrating on playing a game I might not notice a message, or if I did I might get annoyed and ignore it.

[Bill Spight]

I am going to have to start ignoring this thread. I keep pulling myself in. OTOH, some of my previous remarks seemed to be helpful.

How hard would it be for the admin to send a private message to the player who was perhaps the butt of some sexist remarks and ask, "Is that guy bothering you?"

Just to be clear, huge respect for Bill and his contributions to this thread, but I do not agree with this solution.

I think the comment, in a public forum was horribly sexist. Imagine if such a remark was made about a racial/ethnic stereotype - no bag of emoticons could make the remark ok.

Sure, there are women who might not think this is a big deal, and if they knew the person might laugh it off. But asking that one woman is problematic. First of all, it puts the burden on her to be "that woman" who cannot take a "joke" and gets the "hilarious" guy in trouble. Second, it does nothing for the rest of the women watching who are appalled. Third, the confirmation delay will encourage other "humorists" to make lighthearted mysoginist remarks because anything unfunny, or painful about this can be emoticonned away. Finally, a conversation about the appropriateness of the remark may well ensue in the meantime with both sides saying things that neither want to hear and have nothing to do with go.

As I said before, I do not play on KGS and do not know the culture. I was basing my remarks on the reactions of skydyr, Boidhre, and others.

Now, whether calling a girl a girl is sexist, or whether a jocular remark saying that she does not fit the sexist stereotype is offensive depends upon the local culture. If it violates the cultural norms of decorum and offends the onlookers, then her opinion does not matter. But if the offensiveness depends upon how she feels, then it does.

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

[Pippen]

It's a public go server not a small club where everyone knows each other and knows what can and cannot be said.

Do u want a server where people discuss in an aseptic " we just make it right for everyone" style? I do not. I want people to speak up their minds except if they insult people or if they bothering people in an obvious inappropriate way, e.g. if I would have written over 10 moves that this girl sucks or that everyone should come to my new church or whatever. In dubio pro libertate! That should be the guidance. It would make life a lot easier - for the people and for the admins, because the admins could focus more on the real issues. Again: I can understand the admin here and maybe I went too far, but then again: Can I say (during kibitzing) that this girl is pretty or is this already sexual harassment on KGS or vice versa: Can I say that I find her not pretty? It becomes really nitpicking from there. All that is not a real problem, but maybe because of that a nice discussion topic^^.

[uPWarrior]

My opinion on this particular case changed as I read the subsequent posts, so perhaps my misunderstanding was the same as that of the admin.

When I first read "wow, girls are not supposed to think that well^^" I thought that it was a remark regarding that female's ability to think when compared to someone else's. I don't think it is appropriate to state that men are supposed to "think better" than women, so I considered the comment sexist and possibly offensive to the player.
It turns out that the player is really a girl (as in "young"), so the comment is possibly directed to her age and not to her gender. I would consider this to be a compliment rather than an insult ("wow, children of your age don't usually think that well!").

Is is possible that something like this happened with the admin?

[deja]

Pippen, you said you had made 2-3 remarks like the example you posted. Did the admin inform you of the rules against sexist language and give you a warning before the ban? Had you been warned on other occasions for inappropriate language or breaking other rules? Was this your first KGS offence? Would we get a different story from the admin?

[Pippen]

Pippen, you said you had made 2-3 remarks like the example you posted. Did the admin inform you of the rules against sexist language and give you a warning before the ban? Had you been warned on other occasions for inappropriate language or breaking other rules? Was this your first KGS offence? Would we get a different story from the admin?

No, I was not informed or warned and honestly it'd be just not practical to inform or warn people as well as inquiring the sitation like Bill Spight suggested. After all it's not robbery here, just some remarks among thousands of remarks.... I think it was my 2nd KGS offense (I am at KGS since 2003). I can't remember what the first one was about, but it could be that I talked about things unrelated to go in an open chat.

@warrior: My comment was definitely aiming at females not able to do what men can do. The typical macho attitude, but wrapped as an humorous remark like if you see a women doing something good/bad and you teasing?!? her resp. the community a bit about her sex. As a real sexist comment I'd have considering the following: Wow, this girl can really think well and that's something since we all know that women are not there for thinking, but for different stuff...am I right guys, hahaha?

[Boidhre]

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

More, speaking from experience, if a conversation is fast moving you don't have the time to figure out all the facts of the situation. Sometimes you have to make calls based on just the text in front of you and text doesn't convey tone well.

[deja]

My comment was definitely aiming at females not able to do what men can do. The typical macho attitude, but wrapped as an humorous remark like if you see a women doing something good/bad and you teasing?!? her resp. the community a bit about her sex. As a real sexist comment I'd have considering the following: Wow, this girl can really think well and that's something since we all know that women are not there for thinking, but for different stuff...am I right guys, hahaha?

Ummmm, yeah, I'm siding with the KGS admin on this one...

[Boidhre]

It's a public go server not a small club where everyone knows each other and knows what can and cannot be said.

Do u want a server where people discuss in an aseptic " we just make it right for everyone" style? I do not. I want people to speak up their minds except if they insult people or if they bothering people in an obvious inappropriate way, e.g. if I would have written over 10 moves that this girl sucks or that everyone should come to my new church or whatever. In dubio pro libertate! That should be the guidance. It would make life a lot easier - for the people and for the admins, because the admins could focus more on the real issues. Again: I can understand the admin here and maybe I went too far, but then again: Can I say (during kibitzing) that this girl is pretty or is this already sexual harassment on KGS or vice versa: Can I say that I find her not pretty? It becomes really nitpicking from there. All that is not a real problem, but maybe because of that a nice discussion topic^^.

I don't want a server like that, I've never said I do. I personally have a high tolerance for most kinds of things said online. I don't own or control KGS though, so it's pretty immaterial what I think. I think the rules are way too strict but given the rules and the general methodology of the admins on there from what I've seen, your ban was consistent.

[Bonobo]

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

You don’t seem to get the point that calling women “girls” is sexist, no matter how funny you believe your remarks to be.

The player in question is a girl not a woman.

Oh. OK, so I’ve been too quick, too judicial.

Please accept my apology.

[Bill Spight]

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

More, speaking from experience, if a conversation is fast moving you don't have the time to figure out all the facts of the situation. Sometimes you have to make calls based on just the text in front of you and text doesn't convey tone well.

That's why we have emoticons.

[Pippen]

I think the rules are way too strict but given the rules and the general methodology of the admins on there from what I've seen, your ban was consistent.

I could'nt agree more.

[Boidhre]

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

More, speaking from experience, if a conversation is fast moving you don't have the time to figure out all the facts of the situation. Sometimes you have to make calls based on just the text in front of you and text doesn't convey tone well.

That's why we have emoticons.

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

[Pippen]

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

Yes, because usually it signals that you do not mean what you just said seriously, but in another more peaceful sense. That is how I interpret it. Of course there might be rare cases when it doesn't apply.