Why is go so frustrating?

[EdLee]

Perhaps not coincidentally, most people seem to find learning a new language very frustrating too.

Actually, most people can learn a new language -- or 3 new ones, or 5... I don't know the limit -- completely effortlessly at birth.

Up to a certain age, maybe 10 or 13, I also don't know exactly when,
most people still can learn a few new languages quite easily.

[hailthorn011]

I deal with the frustration by trying to tell myself that a loss is more valuable than a win assuming I played my best. That's because you tend to learn more from a loss than a win.

And if that cliche doesn't work, I spend some time dismantling bots. Believe it or not, but that is a decent stress reliever.

[tapir]

Actually, most people can learn a new language -- or 3 new ones, or 5... I don't know the limit -- completely effortlessly at birth.

You just don't remember the effort.

[EdLee]

You just don't remember the effort.

Actually, I don't remember much of what happened before I was... 3 ?

However, I don't see the frustrating effort in very young children
learning to speak their native language. Or, for example, people in Europe,
speaking what, 2, 3, 4 languages fluently, at a very young age.

It is possible that we all find it extremely frustrating as children to learn our native language.
It is possible that those in Europe who can speak multiple languages fluently also found it
an extremely frustrating process.

Do you? Do you think -- sorry -- do you see evidence that most young children find it frustrating
to learn their native language? Or, for those children who can fluently speak multiple languages say, before 10,
do you see their frustration in the process?

If you do, please enlighten us. Because I don't see any shred of evidence for it.

[Uberdude]

[tapir]

Or, for example, people in Europe, speaking what, 2, 3, 4 languages fluently, at a very young age.

In my experience most binational couples have a lot of trouble to bring up their children bilingual. Often enough even monolingual families in foreign countries have problems to retain their native languages over more than one generation. This wouldn't be the case if learning were effortless (We talked about effort not frustration before!).

Children speaking not 2, but 3, 4 languages fluently are rare exceptions even if those exceptions are highly advertised.

And yes, I believe it is wrong when children are schooled at age 4, put in multilingual schools (with none of the languages their native language) and additionally forced to perform in "creative" fields after school by their ambitious parents who mistake education for affection, but they are never let alone to play outdoors. And yes, you can see the frustration of the overschooled children, in their eyes if you ever gave lessons to primary school children or in ADHD or the number of children on medication or the alarming prevalence of eating disorders.

[Amelia]

Do you? Do you think -- sorry -- do you see evidence that most young children find it frustrating
to learn their native language? Or, for those children who can fluently speak multiple languages say, before 10,
do you see their frustration in the process?

If you do, please enlighten us. Because I don't see any shred of evidence for it.

In my little boy, barely two and about 10 words vocabulary in both german and french, I see no specific frustration linked to language (sometimes he is frustrated by not managing to open the marmelade pot, or not being allowed a third biscuit. How he feels is quite obvious on his face).

However it does not mean learning how to speak is effortless for him (or anyone). Those are two different things.

[billywoods]

Perhaps not coincidentally, most people seem to find learning a new language very frustrating too.

Actually, most people can learn a new language -- or 3 new ones, or 5... I don't know the limit -- completely effortlessly at birth.

I wouldn't say "effortlessly" and "without frustration" were the same thing at all. I'm not convinced that what you've written is true: see this post (including the post quoted), for a local and recent discussion. But I did say "most people", and most people are adults!

[daal]

When comparing go and languages, it might be useful to separate the learning aspect and the performing aspect. For an adult at least, the learning process is similar. You can learn from books or with a teacher or both. There's a lot to learn, and you have to keep practicing in order not to forget what you've learned. There are also differences though. The basic structures of a foreign language are not utterly new, because it's always possible to compare them to the structures of something we presumably know pretty well - our native language. Besides seeing how these structures function, getting better is primarily a matter of learning more words, and while it may be tiresome to memorize vocabulary, to me at least it seems a heck of a lot easier than memorizing joseki. In any case, the difficulties that arise during the learning process - forgetting a structure, forgetting a word - don't seem particularly frustrating.

Then there's the performing aspect. With languages, this is talking to people, reading and writing - and for students, taking tests. With go it's a battle. These seem fundamentally different, and while not being able to express oneself adequately, or not being able to fully understand or grasp nuances of what is being communicated to you can be frustrating, except in a test, one's day to day performance is not characterized by failure or success. In go, you are evaluated every game, and half of the time you get failing marks.

In this regard, I think that the comparison with sports is more apt. Like go, sports is about winning and losing, and all of the work that you've put in training all comes down to whether you win or lose one individual game, and if you lose, what was all that training good for? I think that this is the problem that go players face, and it becomes a particularly irritating question when you have put in months and years of training and are still below the level of many six year olds.

I learned German from a book and without a teacher when I was in my mid 20's and it took me about a year to reach something comprable to dan level. It never bothered me that I could never achieve the fluency of even some of the stupidest six year olds. My proficiency was perfectly adequate to do whatever I wanted to do in Germany - after all, language is a means, not an end. Being good at go just enables you to be good at go.

[EdLee]

...after all, language is a means, not an end. Being good at go just enables you to be good at go.

Hmm, Go can be a means, too. There are many nice things we can learn from Go
that can also be applied to other areas of life.
(Of course, there are people who are very good at Go -- pros, even! --
who haven't figured out this lesson; at the same time,
there are amateur Go people, even at kyu levels, who have.
So whether or not being good at Go just means you're good at Go
depends on the person, and not Go -- this is true for many other disciplines,
including language. )

[bgrieco]

I don't believe the problem is that Go is frustrating.

I believe the problem is with Internet Go.

I have exactly the same general frustration problem, but that only exists online. On my (now practically extinct) local Go club, loosing was not a problem. The opponent was there, in front of you. Colleagues at your side, you could have a bad game, go outside, take some breath, and return for another try.

Online Go servers have a strict ranking system. It's very hard to find free games. When you find them, you may get sandbagged.
But for me, sandbagging doesn't really matter much. I was already accused of it and got sandbagged two days ago. It just happens.

What pisses me is the competitive paranoia. People seem to have a schedule to learn Go. "I must make to 1kyu before next summer".

I don't want to become 1kyu till next summer, I want to become 1kyu naturally, as if the game was part of me. BTW, I know that this may sound even worst than the former phrase

I don't have time to study. I work 9 to 6, have two kids, all I have to study and play are two daily hours, from 10pm to midnight.

Tsumego's and Joseki's are great. A great way to boredom. You may study them for a week, you'll have a match with someone who have studied them for two weeks. You loose. Ok, you study one more week, the other guy also studies it for one more week... You loose also.

Not playing is not a bad way to deal with the frustration. I spent some weeks on that diet. Just watching dan and pro games.
I decided to come to this forum for that sake. Talking, discussing the game, rather than playing it.
I played some games lately. Discovered that I wasn't far behind from where I left.
Seems that the strategy did work.

[EdLee]

I don't want to become 1kyu till next summer, I want to become 1kyu naturally...

Nice!

Tsumego's and Joseki's are great. A great way to boredom.

Yes!

[Bonobo]

[..]

What pisses me is the competitive paranoia. People seem to have a schedule to learn Go. "I must make to 1kyu before next summer".

I don't want to become 1kyu till next summer, I want to become 1kyu naturally, as if the game was part of me. [..]

I like this, too.

[..]

I decided to come to this forum for that sake. [..]

Waiter, I want a big jug of that same sake that the gentleman over there had. And hot, please.


Greetings Tom

[billywoods]

It's very hard to find free games.

I must disagree with this. I play plenty of free games. Provided you're not very weak or strong, it's pretty easy to find any games you like, free or ranked, as long as your rank is stable. (The reason for this last condition is the same reason people like playing games against stronger players but don't like to be sandbagged: if the reality differs from the expectation, people feel deceived and think the other player is playing dirty. People like to know who they're playing against.)

[tekesta]

I don't believe the problem is that Go is frustrating.

I believe the problem is with Internet Go.

Which is why I'd rather play a game in person. Baduk is highly enjoyable despite the difficulty of mastering it - especially when there is someone just across the table to help you grow.

I have exactly the same general frustration problem, but that only exists online. On my (now practically extinct) local Go club, loosing was not a problem. The opponent was there, in front of you. Colleagues at your side, you could have a bad game, go outside, take some breath, and return for another try.

I need to go visit my old friends at my local Baduk club. They still gather once or twice a week, but I have not seen them in a couple of years.

What pisses me is the competitive paranoia. People seem to have a schedule to learn Go. "I must make to 1kyu before next summer".

This is OK if you're aspiring to be a pro, but otherwise it's a waste of energy. Since I know that I'll never become pro unless I put in gargantuan amounts of time and effort - and even then the chances are slim - I don't sweat the rankings.

I don't want to become 1kyu till next summer, I want to become 1kyu naturally, as if the game was part of me. BTW, I know that this may sound even worst than the former phrase

In this aspect I find Go to be much like martial arts. It's usually better to spend what little time one has practicing the techniques repeatedly. It would be good to play many games of Baduk, but practicing the techniques for good play is essential to growing in the game.

I don't have time to study. I work 9 to 6, have two kids, all I have to study and play are two daily hours, from 10pm to midnight.

My work is seasonal, so I have free time now to study Baduk. However, once summer comes I will have only an hour or two every night to devote to it.

Tsumego's and Joseki's are great. A great way to boredom. You may study them for a week, you'll have a match with someone who have studied them for two weeks. You loose. Ok, you study one more week, the other guy also studies it for one more week... You loose also.

Tsumego are important and I would spend more time doing them - to refine my technique - than to just play games without having cultivated my skills. It's important to do tsumego that are only slightly difficult to do for someone of your current level. No progress can be made with excessively difficult problems. Joseki are not necessary to know unless you are a strong amateur or pro player. Applying joseki often requires global (whole board) thinking for it to work. Otherwise, even if a joseki gives you a good local result, it can hurt you globally.

Speaking of which, doing whole-board problems - such as those where you guess which is the best place to play your next move - are good to do once in a while. Even for the lousiest of Baduk players, thinking of the whole board is important. All your stones must work together in a game if you intend to win.

Not playing is not a bad way to deal with the frustration. I spent some weeks on that diet. Just watching dan and pro games.
I decided to come to this forum for that sake. Talking, discussing the game, rather than playing it.
I played some games lately. Discovered that I wasn't far behind from where I left.
Seems that the strategy did work.

I've begun studying professional games to get an idea of what a game of Baduk looks like. (Why did I not do this when I first started playing )

One Japanese Baduk instructor says that it's better to spend more time doing problems than to play games (even though playing plenty of games is important in developing Baduk proficiency). http://kazsensei.seesaa.net/article/251428407.html