why did i get into bad shape ...

[otenki]

I just played a blitz game that kindoff ended badly because i missed a connection ... duh
But thats not what my question is about.
I'm white in this game.

I'm wondering about his move 7, the attachement.
It does not look good to me but I ended up in horrible shape while he was happy on both sides.

What are my wrong moves here ?

I did not want to be kept low so I hane'd.

Thanks,
Otenki

[skydyr]

I think if white covers one of his cuts solidly instead of the extension to the second line, white would come out fine. Low or high depends on what you want. Earlier, after the hane, white can fix, let black fix, and then just approach the bottom right to make a base. I think the atari is a bit dubious in this situation, since it fixes black's weakness while amplifying white's.

[Dusk Eagle]

Just play L3 instead of K5. By playing K5, you're actually letting black fix his cutting point before you fix yours. I might also have considered playing J3 instead of L4, but I might be wrong about that.

[otenki]

Thanks guys, makes a lot of sense!
I'm not sure about J3, it feels he can push me down a lot and get thickness early in the game...

Cheers,
Otenki

[skydyr]

Thanks guys, makes a lot of sense!
I'm not sure about J3, it feels he can push me down a lot and get thickness early in the game...

Cheers,
Otenki

Depending on which direction black extends, you'll be able to climb up with a magari (hane/turn) in the other one before black can close off a side, so it may be premature to worry. At worst, you will end up with 2 opposing filled triangles, which should be fine.

[ez4u]

Thanks guys, makes a lot of sense!
I'm not sure about J3, it feels he can push me down a lot and get thickness early in the game...

Cheers,
Otenki

Consider the continuations below.

$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X 3 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . 1 O 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X 3 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . 1 O 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 5 3 2 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 5 3 2 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that J3 offers a simpler approach that would leave White well off. One thing that White has to consider when Black attaches in the first place is - which direction is more important? Since Black has already played the stone on the left side, it is easier for Black to surround the left than the right. The position is too wide open for White to come under serious attack, so White should be thinking of preventing Black from making best use of the stones on the board. Playing toward the left does that better than playing toward the right. White can also play the hane, but it will probably lead to harder fighting within an area where Black outnumbers White.

[otenki]

thanks ez4u and skydir for the answers, I can understand your reasoning.

I'm not sure howhever why black would jump from the one stone.
Is this not a better result for black ? Or should white cut with 3 directly ?

The other result would be even worse:

$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 3 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 1 O 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 3 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 1 O 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Cheers,
Otenki

[Phoenix]

I like ez4u's approach here.

Keep in mind that you don't need the best result. The whole idea of your splitting move at K3 is to keep miai extensions. You need this safety net because you're already in Black's area. The attachment needs a simple reply like an extension, I think. I just don't feel that starting a fight with Black stones around is wise.

If you can dive into Black's framework and come out trading 3rd line territory for 4th line influence, then you've got an even result, which is fantastic if you consider your original disadvantage.

And then it's Black who has to scramble to find territory on your side.

[Bill Spight]