Raising the Standard of Western Go

[Bantari]

there simply must be more to it than just the 'supportive environment'. Or was there?

My experience of being a mathematics student was that I learnt more from (hours upon hours per week of) discussions with enthusiastic fellow students than I ever did from (small amounts of contact time with) lecturers, and when the discussions abated I learnt very little. Ultimately, the bulk of the effort has to be on the part of the student; if a teacher is going to do one single thing to help their students, fostering a supportive environment is probably the most effective.

Hmm...
Then why are some professors considered good teacher while others are not?
If what you do is all by yourself and with fellow students, and forget the prof, why even take the courses? Or why go to the lectures? It certainly does not take a good pedagogue to create an environment and then stand aside. Even I could teach you math in such case, easily!

I mean - I have been in these shoes as well, and while what you described is accurate, I think it is only a part of the picture, important as it may be. Professors, when they are good, provide something very important - guidance and direction. You have to have a starting point and a general understanding what the endpoint is for any given problem you study. And it certainly does not do any harm to have some gentle clues as to where and how to look for any ideas. And enforce competence. Otherwise when you get together with your fellow students, you are more likely to talk about yesterday's game than do any studying. I have been in these shoes too, heh.

If all there was to it was a 'supportive atmosphere' then what professors would do would be to just say: 'There is the sofa, you kids talk and discuss while I bring you some hot tea and cookies.' But then we would call them grandmas, not professors, yes?

Although... maybe you are right.
This would certainly explain why so many graduates (at least in America) don't really know very much of what they have supposedly learned. And why freshmen need to learn to write a proper sentences and paragraphs or add fractions after a dozen years (yes, this is 12 YEARS!) of formal education. Have seen it with my own eyes.

[billywoods]

If all there was to it was a 'supportive atmosphere' then what professors would do would be to just say: 'There is the sofa, you kids talk and discuss while I bring you some hot tea and cookies.' But then we would call them grandmas, not professors, yes?

But that's exactly it. "Supportive" here doesn't mean in some wishy-washy pastoral sense - it means that they are supporting your development as go players (or mathematicians). One of the most supportive things a teacher can do is gather together a group of students and set the ball rolling, e.g. by saying "so what did you learn in my lecture (or your game) last week?" or setting appropriate questions or topics for discussion, or starting an effective study routine, or something.

Two years ago, I attended some 'study groups' (in mathematics). These study groups were entirely student-run, and every student was completely new to the whole endeavour, and the study groups had no guidance or leadership whatsoever. Needless to say, the study groups more or less failed and disintegrated. Last year, with that experience under my belt, I volunteered to lead and part-organise a few of the same study groups, and some had very mild success.

This year I moved elsewhere. In my new location, I saw two separate, very effective study groups (one large, one small) both formed in the same way, as follows: a professor gathered together a bunch of students (some younger, some older) who thought they might be interested in learning a topic, and gave a brief (hour-long, maybe) broad overview talk of that topic, basically making clear how much ground there was to cover and showing us why we should want to learn it. The professor then asked for volunteers to give a term's worth of talks.

Sure enough, here's what happened in both cases: almost all of the students volunteered and were assigned something to talk about, and the talks were generally of very high quality, and almost all of the people who turned up to the first meeting then turned up to basically all subsequent meetings. The organisers were present at both meetings, but basically didn't ever intervene except to occasionally ask an interesting or confusing question - the older students knew the drill already, and the younger ones picked it up quickly, and I got the feeling that it would have worked fine even without the organisers there. I learnt a lot, and (as a younger student) got to know a lot of people.

As you may guess, I am a strong believer in the claim that a little push in the right direction is enough.

[zslane]

Are we talking about how to train adults or children? The future of Go does not rest on the shoulders of adults, but of kids. Most kids can't sit still long enough to benefit from a "supportive environment" aimed at cultivating enlightening discussion between highly motivated students with a lot of self-discpline.

But all that seems rather besides the point to me. The unfortunate fact is that kids aren't interested in ancient board games with hour-long playing times and zero "twitch" skills to master. Until we figure out how to attract kids to the game, debating over how best to teach/train them is putting the cart before the horse.

[billywoods]

Are we talking about how to train adults or children? The future of Go does not rest on the shoulders of adults, but of kids. Most kids can't sit still long enough to benefit from a "supportive environment" aimed at cultivating enlightening discussion between highly motivated students with a lot of self-discpline.

6-year-olds, sure. 12-year-olds, though? I'm not so certain - I think a lot can be done just by putting them in a regular class with a good routine, an atmosphere of working and some older students who will be highly motivated and have a lot of self-discipline, plus a teacher to keep the mood set right. Anyway, of course, the methods I outlined above need adapting according to the audience, but I think they're basically sensible. A large part of becoming good at go is, after all, overcoming an inability to sit still or a tendency to break focus and stop concentrating, even for adults.

[Bantari]

If all there was to it was a 'supportive atmosphere' then what professors would do would be to just say: 'There is the sofa, you kids talk and discuss while I bring you some hot tea and cookies.' But then we would call them grandmas, not professors, yes?

But that's exactly it. "Supportive" here doesn't mean in some wishy-washy pastoral sense - it means that they are supporting your development as go players (or mathematicians). One of the most supportive things a teacher can do is gather together a group of students and set the ball rolling, e.g. by saying "so what did you learn in my lecture (or your game) last week?" or setting appropriate questions or topics for discussion, or starting an effective study routine, or something.

Two years ago, I attended some 'study groups' (in mathematics). These study groups were entirely student-run, and every student was completely new to the whole endeavour, and the study groups had no guidance or leadership whatsoever. Needless to say, the study groups more or less failed and disintegrated. Last year, with that experience under my belt, I volunteered to lead and part-organise a few of the same study groups, and some had very mild success.

This year I moved elsewhere. In my new location, I saw two separate, very effective study groups (one large, one small) both formed in the same way, as follows: a professor gathered together a bunch of students (some younger, some older) who thought they might be interested in learning a topic, and gave a brief (hour-long, maybe) broad overview talk of that topic, basically making clear how much ground there was to cover and showing us why we should want to learn it. The professor then asked for volunteers to give a term's worth of talks.

Sure enough, here's what happened in both cases: almost all of the students volunteered and were assigned something to talk about, and the talks were generally of very high quality, and almost all of the people who turned up to the first meeting then turned up to basically all subsequent meetings. The organisers were present at both meetings, but basically didn't ever intervene except to occasionally ask an interesting or confusing question - the older students knew the drill already, and the younger ones picked it up quickly, and I got the feeling that it would have worked fine even without the organisers there. I learnt a lot, and (as a younger student) got to know a lot of people.

As you may guess, I am a strong believer in the claim that a little push in the right direction is enough.

I understand the importance and value of study groups, believe me.

And while I also understand what you sau (and even agree with that) - I see it more of a failing of modern study methods rather than a virtue. Throughout history, and even right now - people always strive to find the most knowledgable and the strongest teacher they can find. I think that this is because the knowledge of the teacher has (or - should have) a great impact on the way you learn. All other aspects being equal, of course.

But then... I am not really a high authority on anything, so this is only my personal opinion. I am more then open to adjust it once confronted with some convincing facts or ideas.

PS>
In terms of Go:
Why would Go players want to learn from the best possible pro? Any pro knows infinitely more than me (or, say, any other low dan ama) - so why would I (and most other people I guess) rather study with the Meijin than with some random 2p? Why do lectures by high-ranking visiting pros on congresses draw more crowd than the local sherif?

PS>
And for the hopeless ones among us:
Would Hikaru get so good so fast if he had a weak pro in his head rather than Sai?

And anyways - what does it have to do with Kitani?

[Boidhre]

Throughout history, and even right now - people always strive to find the most knowledgable and the strongest teacher they can find. I think that this is because the knowledge of the teacher has (or - should have) a great impact on the way you learn. All other aspects being equal, of course.

It's not really their knowledge you can get knowledge from static sources like books, it's that you can ask them questions and get something of an answer, or a direction towards where to go to find an answer for yourself. The problem is: this is pretty useless if you can't ask good questions (even defining good in this context is immensely tricky, it does not necessarily mean advanced) and it usually will take you quite some time and a lot of work before you can figure out some.

Speaking generally rather than about go.

[RobertJasiek]

It's not really their knowledge you can get knowledge from static sources like books

What are you trying to say here? That knowledge in books is not really the knowledge of the book authors? Why not? What else would it be? Of course, it often is only part of their knowledge.

[Boidhre]

It's not really their knowledge you can get knowledge from static sources like books

What are you trying to say here? That knowledge in books is not really the knowledge of the book authors? Why not? What else would it be? Of course, it often is only part of their knowledge.

In a book you get knowledge laid out according to what the author thinks you need to know and in the best way the author knows to explain it. This may or may not meet your needs.

[billywoods]

In terms of Go:
Why would Go players want to learn from the best possible pro?

Don't know. I don't especially agree with that mindset. A low dan amateur is perhaps different, but I'll never get past 4 dan or so myself anyway, so any 5-6 dan is more than sufficient for the rest of my life.

[zslane]

Would Hikaru get so good so fast if he had a weak pro in his head rather than Sai?

That's a very good question. I think there was more to Hikaru's rapid improvement than just Sai's strength. I think the nature of their relationship (best friends, for all intents and purposes) and the fact that Sai was literally present 24/7 had a lot to do with it as well. I don't know anyone who has ever had that kind of access to a world-class mentor for two years straight (to say nothing of the nearly obsessive drive to catch a rival, in Toya).

[skydyr]

Would Hikaru get so good so fast if he had a weak pro in his head rather than Sai?

That's a very good question. I think there was more to Hikaru's rapid improvement than just Sai's strength. I think the nature of their relationship (best friends, for all intents and purposes) and the fact that Sai was literally present 24/7 had a lot to do with it as well. I don't know anyone who has ever had that kind of access to a world-class mentor for two years straight (to say nothing of the nearly obsessive drive to catch a rival, in Toya).

And here I thought it was because it was necessary to drive the plot...

[Bantari]

In terms of Go:
Why would Go players want to learn from the best possible pro?

Don't know. I don't especially agree with that mindset. A low dan amateur is perhaps different, but I'll never get past 4 dan or so myself anyway, so any 5-6 dan is more than sufficient for the rest of my life.

I fully agree with that. This is also my personal attitude.
But I have a feeling most people looking for Go teachers see it differently. Otherwise pro's teachings or lectures would not command many times the prices that amateur's teachings or lectures. And this is what I am talking about here - general perception or trend, not yours or my personal view in particular.

[tekesta]

Just look at chess and the depth of its history in western culture. There will always be a small niche for chess. But that's all, even given episodes like Fisher (which we will probably never have in western Go.)

The Fischer vs. Spassky game was a microcosm of the Cold War rivalry between the US and USSR. Fischer's victory in the 1972 World Chess Championship ended 24 consecutive years of Soviet domination of that tournament, which makes said victory all the more significant in a geopolitical context; at the time the Soviets had a state-sponsored system chess program that produced many strong players and success in international chess served as propaganda. We can say that, among other things, a fair amount of national pride was at stake.

Now, if there were, say, a Cold War between America and China, a weiqi series of 7 games between the top player in China and the top player in America would serve as a microcosm of said rivalry. Or even a similar rivalry between America and Korea DPR. A series of games between the top player in Korea DPR and the top player in America would be a microcosm of that, especially if weiqi were sponsored by the government in Korea DPR.

It's likely that, for the foreseeable future, such a rivalry will not occur. What weiqi player in any Western country would be able to compete with even the lousiest pros and aspirants that China, Japan, and Korea have to offer? As well, Westerners tend to be fond of iconic, game-changing battles (e.g., Thermopylae, Waterloo), whereas weiqi is a game of progressive gains and losses. Imagining a chain of events in such a fashion, for many of us in the West, is like watching wall paint dry.

[Bantari]

Just look at chess and the depth of its history in western culture. There will always be a small niche for chess. But that's all, even given episodes like Fisher (which we will probably never have in western Go.)

The Fischer vs. Spassky game was a microcosm of the Cold War rivalry between the US and USSR. Fischer's victory in the 1972 World Chess Championship ended 24 consecutive years of Soviet domination of that tournament, which makes said victory all the more significant in a geopolitical context; at the time the Soviets had a state-sponsored system chess program that produced many strong players and success in international chess served as propaganda. We can say that, among other things, a fair amount of national pride was at stake.

Now, if there were, say, a Cold War between America and China, a weiqi series of 7 games between the top player in China and the top player in America would serve as a microcosm of said rivalry. Or even a similar rivalry between America and Korea DPR. A series of games between the top player in Korea DPR and the top player in America would be a microcosm of that, especially if weiqi were sponsored by the government in Korea DPR.

It's likely that, for the foreseeable future, such a rivalry will not occur. What weiqi player in any Western country would be able to compete with even the lousiest pros and aspirants that China, Japan, and Korea have to offer? As well, Westerners tend to be fond of iconic, game-changing battles (e.g., Thermopylae, Waterloo), whereas weiqi is a game of progressive gains and losses. Imagining a chain of events in such a fashion, for many of us in the West, is like watching wall paint dry.

Thanks for the history lesson.
I take it you agree that even if a Fisher-episode happened in Go (which is not likely), Go will not surpass chess in popularity... so aiming at that is not realistic (although it might be nice or even partially productive.)

[tekesta]

None. The standard of Western go is not being held back by lack of books.

The standard of western is held back by lack of a structured program aimed at turning children into professionals. A go school with professional level teachers where groups of kids spend many hours a day, every day, learning go. And such a school is impossible until it is considered acceptable in Western culture to have your kids spend many hours a day, every day, learning go.

And just why would anyone, other than East Asian immigrants seeking to inculcate in their children an appreciation for their mother culture, want their kids to spend so much time studying a game that, at least to the parents, may appear to be a waste of time and space? Although a digression from the topic, this article might serve to show, through another lens, one reason why baduk has not yet taken off in the West.
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~class/am483 ... bball.html

Making thousands of well written books on every possible go related topic available would not have a significant impact on the level of western play.

I would begin with high quality problem books. These might be more practical for those in DDK level, where plenty of games should be played to begin developing an understanding of how baduk is played. Theory books would be for those just entering SDK level. These would help to explain what the SDK student learned throughout the DDK phase.