Useful books to become stronger

[Mivo]

I'm just pointing out I think studying joseki is less efficient. I understand you want to sell books, but I just disagree on when people need to study joseki.

I don't have any books to sell, and I still agree with (what I think) Robert is saying. When I was a DDK, familiarizing myself with a number of josekis and joseki ideas ("principles") gave me something in addition to reading practice that tsumego didn't offer me: a feeling of having an inkling of an idea what to do after the immediate opening. This made me feel more confident, and it dispelled a bit of the fog of feeling completely lost.

I'm not suggesting a DDK should actually memorize more than the basic sequence, and no josekis more complex than 15 or so moves. Maybe a couple of variations for the extremely common and simple ones, all in an attempt to understand why it's not a bad idea to play that way. Unlike many people, I'm not opposed to the concept of memorizing things without initially fully understanding them. I believe that understanding can follow memorization, though the risk is that the "reasons" we make up for why something is played are incorrect. That's why having a book explaining these principles can be valuable.

At the end, though, what matters is (and I sound like a broken record) the fun element. Cttsui seems interested in and curious about josekis, so studying josekis is a good idea. There's little harm in it and curiosity and interest accelerate learning. It is more or less efficient than other approaches? I don't know. It depends on the individual and how they learn best.

[Buri]

Greetings,
learning a few basic joseki is essential for a beginner. If not, then there will be repeated frustration from not knowing how one should deal with basic attacks on your corner stones and as a result, constant and unnecessray losses. It simply makes the game easier and more fun. Nor doe sit require a great deal of energy. Furthermore, one can , as noted above learn a great deal about shapes and tesuji from this process.
The 38 book is actually quite simple to get all that you need at this stage but there is no need to fele guilty about not memorising all the variations. Just get the basic shapes internalized. When you finsih a game, review it and check the corner plays against the basic patterns in the book.
In the same way, it is well worth buying both copies of Dictionary of 21st Joseki. A little expensive perhaps but I do find them easier to use than the Ishida masterwork that proceeded the. The same thing about all the complex variations applies. Just don`t bother at this stage.See what crops up in a game. Study it a little. Make an sgf file of it and post it to yourslef on ipad using smartgo so that you can play ity through a few times everyday. This builds up a decnet repertoire quite naturally and without pain.
As you get better start adding a variation or two to apattern you like. Pick out joseki from pro games and look them up in the books for interestign comments etc.
Best wishes,
Buri

[SoDesuNe]

Until SDK I've seen only a couple of players even playing the first two moves in a Joseki correct (both sides). In SDK people often play Josekis in the right order but chose the wrong Joseki in the first place. Around low Dan players tend to have a knack of the direction but only play the same five to ten Josekis over and over.

Really no point in bothering in my opinion. It's more important to understand the opening, which side is big/interesting, which corner isn't (e.g. pincering or defending from an approach) etc.

[kill0]

Thank you for this post. Am a beginner and slowly trying to study the game, so it's incredibly helpful !

[darthmage]

A very useful post ! I have been following the reading list from here for my go study.

[Kanin]

I haven't read many go books. But on the subject of joseki and understanding basic opening ideas in relation to josekis I read one book which really had a huge impact on me. It's often over-looked because of it's ugly front cover and lack of in-depth diagrams but I think it's a great book for clarifying strategic concepts. The book is Yilun Yang's "Whole-board thinking in Joseki" (I think that's the exact title, borrowed it from a friend so I don't have it in front of me). The book comes in two volumes and basically just shows common opening situations and asks whcih joseki move would be a good choice. Then follows a few lines of play and a conclusion. Very simple but very effective. I read it when I was already a 3d player but I remember thinking that: "Boy, I wish I had read this a lot sooner!".

Cheers

[AKaios]

Thank you so much for this topic! I really have enjoyed everyone's responses! I have been looking for many Go books on the internet and I came right to this website to find out about all the ones I've been looking to purchase.


I can't wait to begin my studies.

[SoDesuNe]

Since I opened the topic: My personal opinion on which books are best for which level can be found here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SoDesuNe It is also much more up to date than the first post or my other post in this topic.

[Aten]

cttsui (13 kyu): I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis....

oren: If you're new to go, you don't have to sit down and memorize joseki. That is one of the last things you need to worry about.

buri: learning a few basic joseki is essential for a beginner. If not, then there will be repeated frustration from not knowing how one should deal with basic attacks on your corner stones...

buri: It simply makes the game easier and more fun. Nor doe sit require a great deal of energy. Furthermore, one can ... learn a great deal about shapes and tesuji from this process.

buri: The 38 book is actually quite simple to get all that you need at this stage but there is no need to feel guilty about not memorising all the variations. Just get the basic shapes internalized.


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I've always been curious about the strength levels where the Elementary Go Series started being useful for people, and when they stopped being useful, and it's always been neat to see where opinions lie...

As for
G11 38 Basic Joseki - Elementary Go Series - Book 2

I've seen people recommend the book at 30 kyu for 'exactly' those reasons buri, though Robert has told me that 12 kyu is probably where the book is most useful for everyone in general.

I think G11 and G38 (the green and the yellow ones) are actually pretty useful books for people to browse at the lowest kyus if they like that sorta thing.

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maybe 18 kyu is where the other books on joseki can be read

the ancient G1 and G3 books Modern Joseki and Fuseki

[though some people dont think they're great at the higher levels, and some think there's still stuff in the books that boggle high up people]

and Robert's Joseki Fundamentals Volume 1 and 2

at 15 Kyu the Yutopians kick in.

----

30 kyu - G11 38 Basic Joseki - Elementary Go Series - Book 2
18 kyu - G1 Modern Joseki and Fuseki, Volume 1
18 kyu - G3 Modern Joseki and Fuseki, Volume 2
18 kyu - Joseki Fundamentals Volume 1 - Robert Jasiek
18 kyu - Joseki Fundamentals Volume 2 - Robert Jasiek
15 kyu - Y22 Essential Joseki - Rui Naiwei
15 kyu - Y30 Star Point Joseki - The Nihon Kiin
15 kyu - Y36 Even Game Joseki - The Nihon Kiin
10 kyu - G21 Dictionary of Basic Joseki, Volume 1 [most think 5 kyu yet Feng Yun says 10 kyu]
10 kyu - G22 Dictionary of Basic Joseki, Volume 2
10 kyu - G23 Dictionary of Basic Joseki, Volume 3
10 kyu - K52 Get Strong at Joseki, Volume 1
10 kyu - Whole Board Thinking in Joseki Volume 1 - Yilun Yang
10 kyu - Whole Board Thinking in Joseki Volume 2 - Yilun Yang
10 kyu - Y29 Tricks in Joseki - Yang Yilun
10 kyu - Joseki Fundamentals Volume 3 - Robert Jasiek
8 kyu - G35 The Great Joseki Debates
5 kyu - Punishing and Correcting Joseki Mistakes - Mingjiu Jiang
5 kyu - G24 Enclosure Josekis
2 kyu - All About Joseki - Mingjiu Jiang and Guo Juan
1-Dan - K63 300 Joseki Problems - Volume Three
3-Dan - Shuko: The Only Move Volume I - The Joseki/Fuseki Collection


I think i just got fascinated with the approchability of certain go books when i wanted to see just what the ballpark was for the Elementary Go Series

30 kyu - G11 38 Basic Joseki - Elementary Go Series - Book 2 (green)
20 kyu - G10 In the Beginning - Elementary Go Series - Book 1 (pink)
20 kyu - G12 Tesuji - Elementary Go Series - Book 3 (blue)
20 kyu - G13 Life and Death - Elementary Go Series - Book 4 (yellow)
19 kyu - G14 Attack and Defense - Elementary Go Series - Book 5 (copper)
15 kyu - G16 Handicap Go - Elementary Go Series - Book 7 (dark green)
10 kyu - G15 The Endgame - Elementary Go Series - Book 6 (brown)

a lot of people felt G11 and G14 were for far stronger players, but i'm starting to think that the Series basically wanted people to read them in order and 20 kyu was the ideal starting point, and if you're not frustrated easily and you're patient, any sorta beginner period...


Anyways, i think buri said it best and just being aware of the shapes and if it somehow makes things easier, all good...

[jts]

Aten, that's a lot of joseki books.

[SoDesuNe]

My experience is the weaker the players are the more they recommend studying Joseki books (as in memorizing Josekis). I rarely find stronger players (>2D), who say study/memorize Josekis to become stronger.

[RobertJasiek]

I rarely find stronger players (>2D), who say study/memorize Josekis to become stronger.

Kageyama and I say and have made the experience that studying (i.e., NOT only memorising by heart) josekis is one (of many) useful things to become stronger. (I have not collected statistics about which percentage of stronger players might (dis)agree.)

On what do you base your statement? Stronger players say that only rote memoriation is counter-productive. Are you sure that you do not confuse this advice with the different advice of better understanding go theory while studying josekis?

[SoDesuNe]

Well, Kageyama, not everybody's favourite teacher ; )

I experienced situations where mainly "weaker" players lose a corner or get a bad corner position and immediately say it's because they didn't know the Joseki move. Similar: The opponent did not play the "correct" Joseki move and their attempt to "punish" the mistake led to a disaster.
A bit different but actually the same: Both players play Joseki and when someone tries to explain the result is overall not good for one player, they answer "but it's Joseki!".
For me it's not the Joseki knowledge that is missing, it's just elementary knowledge of attack and defense and elementary positional judgement. Memorizing Josekis will not solve that problem, repeatedly solving Life-and-Death and Tesuji problems will (among other ones like opening problems).

Maybe really studying Josekis is one way to become stronger, I can't comment on that because I mostly focus on the more glaring mistakes and they almost exclusively happen when the players "read".

[Magicwand]

most josekies can be derived from reading if you are strong enough.
there are some josekies that is very complicated so professionals rely on memorization.
at our non professional level i dont think it is really important to memorize josekies because it usually isn't the place where a game is won or lost.

[RobertJasiek]

The combination of elementary and advanced knowledge of memorised sequences, attack and defense, positional judgement and life and death is insufficient to always avoid what you describe about weaker players' mentioning of josekis. If autodidactic study does not retrieve it from dictionaries, one needs also books teaching tactical choices, strategic choices, other strategic concepts, meanings, aims, related principles, capturing races, endgame etc. Josekis involve all that.