Lee Sedol vs Western Pros

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:14 pm

VincentCB wrote:Andy Liu and Kim Youngsam played at the last Canadian Open in Gatineau (Ottawa). Whoever won that game would win the tournament. Andy won by 0.5 points, after an opening where he was far behind (20-30 points I think according to Guo Juan). It was quite a game

Thanks for clarifying. Do you have the game record?

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:26 pm

Uberdude wrote:
VincentCB wrote:Andy Liu and Kim Youngsam played at the last Canadian Open in Gatineau (Ottawa). Whoever won that game would win the tournament. Andy won by 0.5 points, after an opening where he was far behind (20-30 points I think according to Guo Juan). It was quite a game

Thanks for clarifying. Do you have the game record?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:06 pm

Looks like we won't be seeing a Lee Sedol 3-stone game after all. Bummer. :-|

http://www.go9dan.com/Home/Promotion/4

p2501 · Post by **p2501** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:59 pm

Go9Dan wrote:The 10 game match between Sedol Lee and three Western pros, Catalin Taranu, Gansheng Shi and Andy Liu, has been called after eight fascinating games, as the Western pros were “out of the money.”

Wait what? Out of money? Were they paying to play?

Vesa · Post by **Vesa** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:11 am

p2501 wrote:
Go9Dan wrote:The 10 game match between Sedol Lee and three Western pros, Catalin Taranu, Gansheng Shi and Andy Liu, has been called after eight fascinating games, as the Western pros were “out of the money.”

Wait what? Out of money? Were they paying to play?

Professional matches are always sponsored by someone. I guess Go9Dan could use a little bit better PR language.

Cheers,
Vesa

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:53 am

p2501 wrote:
Go9Dan wrote:The 10 game match between Sedol Lee and three Western pros, Catalin Taranu, Gansheng Shi and Andy Liu, has been called after eight fascinating games, as the Western pros were “out of the money.”

Wait what? Out of money? Were they paying to play?

Like Vesa said, it's a PR issue on their end. But the fact it's in quotations seems to indicate it's not a money issue. The event is sponsored, but if the budget accounted for a ten-game match, there's no reason funding should be a problem at this point.

I think it's a sideways reference to options trading. Being 'out of the money' means that the actual cash value of the stock your option represents isn't covered. It's a risky maneuver with high payback potential.

More often than not, it's a term that's misunderstood as meaning that one is in the red and they should cut their losses. This misinterpreted meaning would make sense in this case. Nevertheless, it's strange language to use. :roll:

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:28 am

Or it could mean that the Western pros could not finish "in the money". But that seemed clear a while back.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:33 am

Isn't there a virtual currency used on go9dan, with some sort of betting system? could it be a reference to that?

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:28 am

I'm not familiar with the fine distictions in "money-talk" but for me it sounds like the western pros decided to not play further matches because it presents them - as fellow pros - in a very bad light. Taking a 3-stone-handicap while being in the same profession surely raises a lot of doubt whether they are not amateurs after all.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:34 am

I would not view them in a bad light if they needed to take 3 stones from Lee Sedol. I know Andy and Catalin are very strong, it just makes me appreciate Lee's strength even more.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:21 am

More or less what Bill said:

In poker tournaments there is a cutoff, where perhaps the top ten players receive some amount of money, with increasing prizes as you go from 10th to 1st. I believe it's called being "in the money" or "out of the money" once you know whether you place within that range. Was there some sort of prize if the Western pros could hold the match to less than 2 stones?

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:04 am

The title "Western Pros Resign Jubango" makes it sound like the pros made the decision, not go9dan.com . If they were hoping to save face, it didn't work from my perspective. It makes it sound like they were afraid of losing at 3 stones, so they didn't want to try

p2501 · Post by **p2501** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:31 pm

Well at the start it sounded like they would pull through the 10 games regardless of the outcome.

Polama · Post by **Polama** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:10 pm

The original announcement was that the US team would win $1,000 apiece if they were at black or better at the end of the series. Depending on how you interpret that condition, they were out of the money sometime between round 6 and 8.

"Out of the money" means that no matter how the last two games went, the American team couldn't win the cash prize. I don't know about Go, but it's pretty common in lots of competitions to end as soon as one competitor has no possible way of achieving victory: 5 game tournaments usually end at 3 wins, baseball games skip the last half inning if that team is already ahead.

Congrats to Lee Sedol, and good luck to the Western Pros in future events!

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:20 pm

SoDesuNe wrote:I'm not familiar with the fine distictions in "money-talk" but for me it sounds like the western pros decided to not play further matches because it presents them - as fellow pros - in a very bad light. Taking a 3-stone-handicap while being in the same profession surely raises a lot of doubt whether they are not amateurs after all.

Taking three stones from a top player was not all that unusual back when pros took handicaps from other pros. Back in Dosaku's day, a shodan would expect to take 4 or 5 stones from the Meijin. He was said to have been so strong that he could have given them 6 or 7 stones.

These days shodans are stronger, but 9 dans are weaker. It would not be surprising if Lee Sedol could give 2 stones to some 9 dans.

Life In 19x19

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