#215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weeds

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drishti
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 3 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . 2 X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by mitsun »

The Intrepid wrote:@Bill Spight
I'm not entirely convinced, yet, that the point should not be counted. :) I need to think about this a bit.

If we consider the hane plus solid connection, instead of the hanging connection, then this question does not arise and the calculation is symmetric and simple. One could argue that the hanging connection is superior in this position, precisely because it offers the opportunity to make an extra point later, even if the probability is low that it will actually be profitable to do so. When the situation arises, it is a one-point reverse-sente play, which might conceivably be the best move on the board, and hence should have some value. Trimming this possibility off of the result tree is not quite fair. However it is also not fair to give it the same weight as the other branch on the tree, which is likely to be sente at that stage of the game.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | 2 . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I had a brilliant idea. I know now how to win this game! (Drumroll, please.) Verbal misdirection. That's right, verbal misdirection! :rambo: My attempt to live on the right side will fail miserably; that much is clear. Thus, the only way left for me to win this game is if my opponent resigns prematurely. However, the only way this could happen is he falls prey to my powers of persuasion. It's going to be awesome! Should I do it? :mrgreen:
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by bgrieco »

@The Intrepid

Isn't this the whole point of playing Go against a human instead of a computer ? :twisted:
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drishti
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O . 3 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | 2 . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O 2 1 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black should now start making a series of sente plays all over the board.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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tj86430
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by tj86430 »

The Intrepid wrote:Black should now start making a series of sente plays all over the board.

Should he? I think black will win anyway.

I'm sure he could, though.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 3 O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O 2 1 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by Uberdude »

tj86430 wrote:
The Intrepid wrote:Black should now start making a series of sente plays all over the board.

Should he? I think black will win anyway.

I'm sure he could, though.


Or he could pass to show how far ahead he is and that sente is overrated :D
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . 2 O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 1 O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black lost some points here. Let's compare these diagrams:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C C C 4 3 1 5 . . . |
$$ O C C 6 2 O X X X . |
$$ X O O C C O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X T . O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
w = 7, B = 1/2, S1 = W - B = 6.5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C C C C C 4 3 . . . |
$$ O C C C C O X X X . |
$$ X O O C 2 O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X M 1 O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
(Moves :b3: and :w4: mark the "fair exchange" or "value of the position" as mitsun termed it previously, which is just a shortcut from the full "expected value calculation" which I was making previously.) W = 10, B = 1, S2 = 9

=> S = S2 - S1 = 2.5

Thus, Black cost himself 2.5 points.

I was saying how I would resign after my attempt to make life on the right fails. I've changed my mind. It'll be good practice for drishti if I play on until the very end. Besides, he worked hard to win this game, so let him enjoy the fruits of his labor a little longer.
Edit:
Actually, I now look at the position and it seems that Black could also have considered this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C C C 6 5 3 7 . . . |
$$ O C C 4 1 O X X X . |
$$ X O O 0 2 O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X M 9 O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
(White takes sente with :w8:, but Black will have the right to play :b9: at some later point.) S = 5 - 1 = 4, although this ends in gote for Black as compared to the other variation where Black would keep sente.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by jts »

NB, the "fair value" Intrepid mentions only applies when a move ends in gote for both sides. This is gote for W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C C C C C 6 4 5 . . |
$$ O C C C C O X X X . |
$$ X O O C 2 O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X M 1 O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]


(Depending on the temperature, :w4: might not even be sente, but anyway.) This, however is sente for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C C C C 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ O C C 6 C O X X X . |
$$ X O O C 2 O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X M 1 O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]


Or else:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C C C C 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ O C C 7 9 O X X X . |
$$ X O O 8 2 O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X M 1 O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]


Is that all? No, of course that's not all.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ C 6 4 3 5 X X . . . |
$$ O C 2 X 1 O X X X . |
$$ X O O O O O X O X . |
$$ X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ X M X O X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]


B ends in sente again! So normally we will count this as B's sente.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . 2 O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 1 O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 3 |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


triggers W T4, triggers B T6 (hope that's the right notation)
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Actually, feel free to indicate triggers on the board (although you can certainly do it in text form like you did). In any case, I reject the trigger.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 1 |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ X X . . |
$$ O X X . |
$$ X O O 1 |
$$ X X O 2 |
$$ X O 3 . |
$$ X O . . |
$$ O O . . |
$$ --------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4
$$ X X . . |
$$ O X X 1 |
$$ X O O C |
$$ X X O O |
$$ X O X 2 |
$$ X O . . |
$$ O O . . |
$$ --------[/go]
Edit:
Incidentally, White needs to watch out here when playing himself:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X X . 2 |
$$ O X X 1 |
$$ X O O 3 |
$$ X X O . |
$$ X O 4 . |
$$ X O . . |
$$ O O . . |
$$ --------[/go]

For this reason, White would simply need to connect first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X X . . |
$$ O X X . |
$$ X O O . |
$$ X X O . |
$$ X O 1 . |
$$ X O . . |
$$ O O . . |
$$ --------[/go]
Edit 2:
Actually, I could have accepted the trigger and then defended, but I want to leave my options open for things like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . O X X X . |
$$ O O X O X . |
$$ O X X O O . |
$$ O X . . . . |
$$ O X . O O . |
$$ O X . . X . |
$$ X . . X . . |
$$ X X X O . . |
$$ X O X . . . |
$$ O . X O X 3 |
$$ X . X . O M |
$$ . O X X . 1 |
$$ . O O X X 2 |
$$ . . X O O X |
$$ X X X X O . |
$$ X O X O O . |
$$ X O X O . . |
$$ O O O O . . |
$$ --------------[/go]
The marked point is almost an eye. Desperate, I know, but even a 1% of a 1% of a chance is better than no chance. :)
Last edited by The Intrepid on Wed May 01, 2013 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by Uberdude »

If white t4 can black change his mind about the trigger? The tempting trigger tesuji...
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 1 |
$$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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