Big Brother Malkovich #2

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:22 am

I don't think Phelan needs to do this (see post above). We can still handle Black's approach as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Generally, approaching a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 point is a higher priority than a 4-4 point because 4-4 points have greater flexibility. I agree completely that if we take the 4-4 in the top left Black should not let White get the upper right approach too, but if this globally is what Phelan is worried about, I think it would have been more consistent to play D16 before the lower left corner, and approach in the top right instead of the last empty corner. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc More consistent opening $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From a directional point of view, leaving the lower left corner empty to have a 4-4 supporting the approach at the top is more consistent than moving D16 down to the lower left.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:40 am

You guys are having way too much fun for move 4...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:31 am

topazg wrote:
Aphelion wrote:Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10.

I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections.

I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more.

This works well for most of the game I think. But big brother still has an incentive to take over the endgame. It is a waste of corrections to end the game without using them all. So it makes sense to let a 3 or 4-point improvement slide in the opening or middle game, but to make a 1/3 point correction near the end. :lol:

I'm not complaining, just noting the inexorable logic of the situation.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:32 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
topazg wrote:
Aphelion wrote:Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10.

I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections.

I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more.

This works well for most of the game I think. But big brother still has an incentive to take over the endgame. It is a waste of corrections to end the game without using them all. So it makes sense to let a 3 or 4-point improvement slide in the opening or middle game, but to make a 1/3 point correction near the end.
I'm not complaining, just noting the inexorable logic of the situation.

Sure, but I'm guessing by endgame I'm going to have 1 or 2 corrections left

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:42 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
topazg wrote:
Aphelion wrote:Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10.

I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections.

I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more.

This works well for most of the game I think. But big brother still has an incentive to take over the endgame. It is a waste of corrections to end the game without using them all. So it makes sense to let a 3 or 4-point improvement slide in the opening or middle game, but to make a 1/3 point correction near the end.
I'm not complaining, just noting the inexorable logic of the situation.

By the time end game comes 1-3 points is worth more relative to the total amount of points left, so that might not be too bad. Plus, given my endgame, I'm fairly certain you won't have much problems regarding too many move corrections :lol:

.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:04 am

Lots of pro games have started this way, so I approve.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:44 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Like I've said before, I don't like taking the open corner here, it seems too passive. This approach seems better, and I've played it before (or similar). Since I never can memorize fuseki patterns completely, I go mostly by faulty memory and intuition here.

If black takes the other corner I plan on enclosing the corner, or approaching the other semi-open corner first. I lean towards enclosing first, however.

If black replies in the corner, I usually leave the joseki unfinished to take the corner, and deal with the cut later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Unfinished joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 3 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 5 W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've seen a lot of moves for 7 here from my opponents, but none of them seemed like an absolute proof that leaving the joseki unfinished is a mistake.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:53 am

Approved.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Change Count: B - 10, W - 10

Thats interesting...looks like White really wants to prevent my fuseki. However, I usually see white having the top left corner like in the Shusaku fuseki when this happens.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . b . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I considered a tight, severe pincer at 'a' or 'b' here, but I can't be sure to get sente after that, and the empty corner is big. That empty corner also is in the direction that the 5-4 stone wants to develop. So I want to take the empty corner in a single move like the 3-3 or 4-4. I'm picking the 4-4 because all my other stones are aimed towards territory, and I want to maintain the balance of power on the board. With his latest, White has essentially played a diagonal 4-4 and 5-4 fuseki. The onus is on him to prove that he can make the influential nature of these two corners work together. My 4-4 point should make that difficult.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:30 am

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:35 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . , . B . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While I sympathize with younger brother's desire to grab the open corner, the damage done to the corner that we already have outweighs it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . d . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has several good follow-up moves, 'a' through 'c'. All of these seriously harm the corner, and because white has the ladder breaker in the lower left and the first move here, most variations favor white.
Furthermore, when the smoke clears, white probably has a presence on the upper right side. This means that the fact that our lower right corner is low becomes a problem. If we were at 'd' it might not be so bad. But as it is, if white comes out of the upper right with sente, then 'e' is beautiful move for white.

The move I chose gets as close as possible to the open corner, while still playing a tough joseki for white.

Post by **Solomon** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:23 pm

schultz · Post by **schultz** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:26 pm

Araban wrote:
I can't agree with Joaz's last play - the difference between pincering and taking the open corner is strictly preference and not a matter of right/wrong. To spend a correction token already on it seems excessive to me; Aphelion's play is just as fine as Joaz's in my book. 'a' through 'b', and most definitely 'c' (in fact if White were to play 'c', the best play for Black would be to once again play elsewhere - learned from a Cho Hye-yeon lecture) do not "seriously harm" R16.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:45 am

I'm a little surprised that Joaz changed my move, I thought that when you have a one stone vs one stone situation in the corner, its not urgent and it is always valid to take the empty corner. The good thing is, this move actually brings the game to more familiar ground for me - I am pretty alien to 5-4 joseki, whereas this pincer is something I play fairly often in my own games. I suspect that Joaz thinks dictating the direction of play here is worth more. Maybe he thinks there's a chance we can get sente out from this pincer?

The problem is, I think this sequence (which I expect to happen) leaves White with sente for the remaining corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Expected sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 1 . . O 6 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Continued.. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . X . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If the top right pans out like this is what I would aim at. I don't think White can really pincer :b3:

because there isn't a good direction for him to block the 3-3. I don't think this situation is bad for black, :b1:

and

both work well with my lower right corner. However, I am a little miffed that White gets to both establish a solid group on the top right while still getting to play in the empty corner. I feel that White's opening, while not wrong, was a little awkward because his D-4 stone was in the diagonal corner from his approach. I want to preserve that awkwardness for him as long as possible. So if at all possible I will try to emerge with sente after this corner sequence on the top right.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:31 am

Life In 19x19

Big Brother Malkovich #2

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