The future of KGS

[BigDoug]

Here is a list of just a few things that would have happened already if KGS was around specifically for our benefit.

1. There wouldn't be an intermittent ten-second lag which makes games at best annoying, and at worst unplayable. There has not been a ten-second lag on anything on the internet anywhere since dial-up.

2. A Java update wouldn't have broken CGoban and stopped me using it for a year.

3. Minor updates and fixes wouldn't have been untended to for years. They may not all have been implemented, but one or two might have. The community would not have to get together and discuss / create hacks to make stones click and add timestamps to chat - wms would just spend 10 minutes doing it and KGS would be awesome again.

4. Users of L19 wouldn't constantly complain about feeling unlistened to, and progress on KGS wouldn't be heading in directions that no one has asked for while the current KGS falls apart. This thread wouldn't exist. The admins wouldn't be the only people constantly in wms's defence.

I'm going to have to ask for your assistance. On the face of them, your arguments are so counter-intuitive that I'm having difficulty understanding the basis of them. Can you please provide a bit of information about your background in IT development? It would make it easier for me to understand your points if I know whether I'm talking with a high school student or someone with professional IT industry experience.

The last time that I'm aware of wide-spread 10-second lag periods on KGS was was a Unix leap year bug. I monitor KGS a fair bit and read the admin mailbox and am not aware of people complaining about such lag spikes. While you may certainly be experiencing these issues, it sounds like KGS is not the cause of them.

Regarding your comment about 10-second delays not being on the internet since dial-up, that's simply not the case. Many on-line applications have delays while they buffer data (e.g., starting a Netflix movie). I tried to order football tickets during a high-demand period a week ago and the delays were several minutes long (presumably due to processor load).

Timestamps in the chat have not been accepted as a feature. To say that the implementation of timestamps have been delayed simply isn't true. The idea has been considered and rejected. I think you're confusing what you want with what the wider KGS community wants. I'm not aware of any groundswell of support for this feature.

As far as KGS falling apart, there were thousands of games played yesterday. Is your definition of falling apart restricted primarily to the stone sounds issue?

I'm genuinely interested in your IT background. The statements which you make are delivered with moral authority, but the reasoning behind them appears to be quite less authoritative. Since you're not a developer and not a project manager, providing some information about your IT knowledge would help me to understand your comments.

[Kirby]

...
...The idea has been considered and rejected. I think you're confusing what you want with what the wider KGS community wants. I'm not aware of any groundswell of support for this feature.
...

Striked out portion should be "wms wants". There's a KGS wishlist, but features are by no means implemented directly in relation to public consensus.

[Bantari]

Think of an important public space, such as a church or a library in a small town - they're definitely not yours, but they are so important to the community that there is a very strong sense in which they should not be taken away.

Where these examples fall apart is that such functions (Church, Library, etc) are paid for by the community or they would not exist. So in such cases I do agree with you that there is a very strong obligation, and even more than obligation - the community actually have at least partial ownership.

Every go player starts a student and ends a teacher, and spends most of their time somewhere in the middle. And so on.

This I also agree on - I have said many times that I would never charge or pay for learning or teaching Go - exactly because of the kind of 'obligation' you are talking about.

However - I paid a lot to learn programming, and paid even more to get really good at it. So if somebody wants my services, they better pay. And if I decide to offer my skills for free, I will expect at least a "Thank you." I guess this is where we differ.

[LocoRon]

Here is a list of just a few things that would have happened already if KGS was around specifically for our benefit. [...]

[...]
Can you please provide a bit of information about your background in IT development? It would make it easier for me to understand your points if I know whether I'm talking with a high school student or someone with professional IT industry experience. [...]

Speaking of fallacies....

[speedchase]

Striked out portion should be "wms wants". There's a KGS wishlist, but features are by no means implemented directly in relation to public consensus.

Sure, wms does most of the final decision making, but even if it is on a wishlist with like a hundred votes, that means only like 0.3% of the KGS population cares. I'm not saying he shouldn't try to do it if he gets around to it, but criticizing him for focusing on other things that are much more important like the HTML client just silly.

Speaking of fallacies....

It's not a fallacy because he wasn't implying that he was wrong because he is not a IT person, what he wanted to know because it would help him figure out how much detail to go into when discussing technical ideas. Non-techie people vastly underestimate the difficulty of explaining basic computer concepts to them.

[billywoods]

It would make it easier for me to understand your points if I know whether I'm talking with a high school student or someone with professional IT industry experience.

No, I don't think it would. I am giving purely anecdotal evidence. You may very well accuse me of lying, but presuming you're not, it doesn't matter whether I'm 10 years old or a retired IT professional, does it?

Allow me to repeat myself. I am telling you that I tried to play a game a couple of days ago and several times had a full byo-yomi period elapse between clicking and my stone appearing on the board. Sometimes my client and the server would notice the time discrepancy and correct for this anomaly, sometimes not. Eventually, I lost on time (even though, on my computer, there were still 6-7 seconds on the clock). I am telling you additionally that I have had this issue intermittently for the two years I've been on KGS, on several different computers, under several internet connections of varying quality, and I hear and see a lot of people on KGS talking about it. The lag extends further than just in games - sometimes opening or closing a room tab takes 30 seconds. (As a relevant example, at the start of my last game - which I lost on time - my opponent apologised for the lag he was experiencing.) Yes, it's anecdotal (much like this thread from April, and this thread from January, and this thread from August, and the first three entries on this SL page), but it makes statements like the following

The last time that I'm aware of wide-spread 10-second lag periods on KGS was was a Unix leap year bug.

completely ridiculous. Lag is very common on KGS and has been talked about a lot, both on L19 and on KGS. If you're not aware of it, you're just not listening.

Regarding your comment about 10-second delays not being on the internet since dial-up, that's simply not the case. Many on-line applications have delays while they buffer data (e.g., starting a Netflix movie). I tried to order football tickets during a high-demand period a week ago and the delays were several minutes long (presumably due to processor load).

What kind of comparisons are these? KGS transfers nowhere near as much data as Netflix and has nowhere near the userload spikes of your football ticket website during high-demand periods. KGS has a very stable and small userload and should be transferring relatively little data. For these reasons, my (unprofessional) opinion is that the 'lag' is not server-side - rather, I suspect the client is poorly coded.

Timestamps in the chat have not been accepted as a feature. To say that the implementation of timestamps have been delayed simply isn't true. The idea has been considered and rejected. I think you're confusing what you want with what the wider KGS community wants. I'm not aware of any groundswell of support for this feature.

Then why did anyone go to the trouble of hacking the client to include features like timestamps, chat logging, and a connection to the server that doesn't bombard you with dialog boxes threatening to cut you off every fifteen minutes? Because people wanted it. Why do I know about this hacked client? Because it's in fairly widespread use and I've had it recommended to me many times. No, I think you are confusing what the KGS community wants with what wms wants.

[Boidhre]

It's not a fallacy because he wasn't implying that he was wrong because he is not a IT person, what he wanted to know because it would help him figure out how much detail to go into when discussing technical ideas. Non-techie people vastly underestimate the difficulty of explaining basic computer concepts to them.

It's a false dilemma, that's the fallacy.

[billywoods]

I paid a lot to learn programming, and paid even more to get really good at it. So if somebody wants my services, they better pay.

See, this is the attitude I can't understand. When I pay unfair, extortionate amounts of money to get good at something, the first thing I want to do is make sure that nobody else ever has to. Education should never be cripplingly expensive. (I also paid a lot of money - and a lot more was paid on my behalf - to learn programming, or rather I'm still paying off my student debts and will be for many years to come, but when I've delivered courses and tutored in programming in the past, I've happily done it for free, because it's important. Large, prestigious universities are now even putting entire courses online, completely for free, because education should never divide the rich from the poor.)

[HermanHiddema]

It's not a fallacy because he wasn't implying that he was wrong because he is not a IT person, what he wanted to know because it would help him figure out how much detail to go into when discussing technical ideas. Non-techie people vastly underestimate the difficulty of explaining basic computer concepts to them.

It's a false dilemma, that's the fallacy.

No it's not.

[speedchase]

It would make it easier for me to understand your points if I know whether I'm talking with a high school student or someone with professional IT industry experience.

No, I don't think it would. I am giving purely anecdotal evidence. You may very well accuse me of lying, but presuming you're not, it doesn't matter whether I'm 10 years old or a retired IT professional, does it?

sigh...

Allow me to repeat myself. I am telling you that I tried to play a game a couple of days ago and several times had a full byo-yomi period elapse between clicking and my stone appearing on the board. Sometimes my client and the server would notice the time discrepancy and correct for this anomaly, sometimes not. Eventually, I lost on time (even though, on my computer, there were still 6-7 seconds on the clock). I am telling you additionally that I have had this issue intermittently for the two years I've been on KGS, on several different computers, under several internet connections of varying quality, and I hear and see a lot of people on KGS talking about it. The lag extends further than just in games - sometimes opening or closing a room tab takes 30 seconds. (As a relevant example, at the start of my last game - which I lost on time - my opponent apologised for the lag he was experiencing.) Yes, it's anecdotal (much like this thread from April, and this thread from January, and this thread from August, and the first three entries on this SL page), but it makes statements like the following

Everything you cite is about isolated instances, Big Doug said that widespread lag is rare.

Regarding your comment about 10-second delays not being on the internet since dial-up, that's simply not the case. Many on-line applications have delays while they buffer data (e.g., starting a Netflix movie). I tried to order football tickets during a high-demand period a week ago and the delays were several minutes long (presumably due to processor load).

What kind of comparisons are these? KGS transfers nowhere near as much data as Netflix and has nowhere near the userload spikes of your football ticket website during high-demand periods. KGS has a very stable and small userload and should be transferring relatively little data. For these reasons, my (unprofessional) opinion is that the 'lag' is not server-side - rather, I suspect the client is poorly coded.

Never the less, lag of 10 seconds delays or more do exist, what you said was false. By the way, the assertion you make about client versus server lag doesn't actually make any sense at all.

Timestamps in the chat have not been accepted as a feature. To say that the implementation of timestamps have been delayed simply isn't true. The idea has been considered and rejected. I think you're confusing what you want with what the wider KGS community wants. I'm not aware of any groundswell of support for this feature.

Then why did anyone go to the trouble of hacking the client to include features like timestamps, chat logging, and a connection to the server that doesn't bombard you with dialog boxes threatening to cut you off every fifteen minutes? Because people wanted it. Why do I know about this hacked client? Because it's in fairly widespread use and I've had it recommended to me many times. No, I think you are confusing what the KGS community wants with what wms wants.

Because a couple of people wanted it? You seem to be forgetting that KGS has a huge number of users. Just because some bored programmer threw something together doesn't mean there is widespread demand for it.


Boidhre: uhh what? It really isn't.

[Boidhre]

It's not a fallacy because he wasn't implying that he was wrong because he is not a IT person, what he wanted to know because it would help him figure out how much detail to go into when discussing technical ideas. Non-techie people vastly underestimate the difficulty of explaining basic computer concepts to them.

It's a false dilemma, that's the fallacy.

No it's not.

All non-IT professionals are non-techies?

[speedchase]

All non-IT professionals are non-techies?

That's not the point, just because I switched which word I was using doesn't mean that I am asserting that they are identical.

[Boidhre]

All non-IT professionals are non-techies?

That's not the point, just because I switched which word I was using doesn't mean that I am asserting that they are identical.

Usually it does actually in the argument structure you used. Regardless, you'd accept that someone outside the IT industry could understand the issues here no? Not everyone outside of the IT industry definitely but there are people who do a lot of coding in their job who aren't working in IT.

[billywoods]

Everything you cite is about isolated instances

Of course it is. That is the nature of anecdotes. Importantly, BigDoug is now "aware" of the issues that he claimed to be unaware of, and it is now up to him to go and do the statistics properly or report the fault to someone who will, if he cares.

the assertion you make about client versus server lag doesn't actually make any sense at all

Are you unhappy with me using the word "lag" for something that's not data transfer? I don't really care. It's clear what I mean: I think the client is clunky for some reason (rather than, or perhaps in addition to, the server being under a lot of strain from a lot of data transfer). I don't claim to know why. (I also might be wrong. It's not my job to be knowledgeable.)

You seem to be forgetting that KGS has a huge number of users.

Let's not confuse things with vague terms - KGS has on the order of tens of thousands of users, rather than, say, millions. If even a couple of hundred of them use this client, that's a relatively very large number. But given that neither of us has anything more than anecdotes, it's not useful for me and you to argue the toss over something we know nothing about. I have reported my anecdotal evidence, and it's over to the admins now.

[Bantari]

I paid a lot to learn programming, and paid even more to get really good at it. So if somebody wants my services, they better pay.

See, this is the attitude I can't understand. When I pay unfair, extortionate amounts of money to get good at something, the first thing I want to do is make sure that nobody else ever has to. Education should never be cripplingly expensive. (I also paid a lot of money - and a lot more was paid on my behalf - to learn programming, or rather I'm still paying off my student debts and will be for many years to come, but when I've delivered courses and tutored in programming in the past, I've happily done it for free, because it's important. Large, prestigious universities are now even putting entire courses online, completely for free, because education should never divide the rich from the poor.)

I hear what you say, and I do not mind teaching programming - for cheap or even free. And I do with people I run across. But this is not what we are talking about here. I feel the wires on this conversation got crossed somewhere.

We are talking about writing code. Its my profession, my craft. Its what I do and how I feed my family. Of course I want to get paid for that, I mean - don't you want to earn a living, get paid for what you do? I might, under circumstances, agree to work on a good project for free, but I see it as a gift I am giving to somebody or something, not as my responsibility. I am willing to give such gifts, especially to things that are important to me (like Go) - but its still a gift and not obligation. And trying to force such obligation on me is just not fair, from where I stand.

I think this is why I resent when somebody tries to tell me its somehow my 'duty' or 'obligation' to keep giving and giving. Especially if at the same time they cannot be bothered to even say "thank you". And when if what I write is not completely to their liking, they will fee free to bash me, call me names, and turn generally nasty like it's my role in life to make them happy and cater to their every demand.

So I hope we have it straight now:

1. Teaching Go, helping learn programming, etc - sure, I can do that for free, no problem. I do that a lot, as a matter of fact. I still have no obligation, and its still a gift I give, but no need to thank, just enjoy. Sure, a 'thank you' is very nice, and certainly makes me try harder, but its not really needed all that much.

2. Exercising my profession, working hard so you can play, for free, day after day, being sensitive to your every whim and request - not so sure about that. I would need at least some degree of gratitude for it, if not outright payment. And the attitude I see displayed by some people here I just find not acceptable. So I am probably not going to write code for you only so you can bash it.