#216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

( For beginners. ) Both sides don't understand the big shared vital point (a):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . a . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
bgrieco wrote:Standard response [ :w28: ]. If white (sic) invades corner I'll try to connect to my wall (somehow)
Bgrieco had a typo there; he meant if Black invades the corner.
Trying to connect to his center White group is a strange idea -- what is the purpose?

Instead, if W takes the big shared vital point of :w1: first,
then if B tries to start a fight with something like the double approach of :b2:,
then White can handle the fight because of his super thick center group:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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bgrieco
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by bgrieco »

To observers:
Guys, since using editors to help reading/experiencing was ok, I used CGoban (KGS) to estimate the score and it calculated w+26 points.
Should I make this info public ?
Was it cheating somehow ?
I believe my opponent has access to the same stuff and he is using it also.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

bgrieco,
bgrieco wrote:Guys, since using editors to help reading/experiencing was ok, [ Excuse ]
I used CGoban (KGS) to estimate the score and it calculated w+26 points.
Should I make this info public ? Was it cheating somehow ?
First, you two should have agreed on exactly what is OK and what is not OK before you started the game.

Second, are you trying to improve at Go or to win ? Count for yourself! :evil:
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by Uberdude »

@bgrieco

bgrieco wrote:To observers:
Guys, since using editors to help reading/experiencing was ok, I used CGoban (KGS) to estimate the score and it calculated w+26 points.
Should I make this info public ?
Was it cheating somehow ?
I believe my opponent has access to the same stuff and he is using it also.


:lol: :lol: . You are definitely allowed to pick random numbers out of a hat to "help" you play, and for a board position like this doing that and using the KGS score estimator are equivalent.
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by Phoenix »

For observers:
My name is Phoenix and I approve EdLee's posts! :mrgreen:

Also, for beginner-to-intermediate players...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Inefficient!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . |
$$ | . . . ? x x x x x ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . |
$$ | . . . x . X . . . x x ? W ? W . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . W X X W X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . a . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In Go, one of the determining factors for victory is efficiency. It's about how much value (of use) you can squeeze out of each stone. Leaving a (which is HUGE) aside for the moment, consider White's play to connect his corner to his wall.

Suppose he manages to do so along the little line marked x. He would then be using eight more stones, in gote, to complete barely over twenty points of territory (a few more if you count the dead Black stones). This is a total of less than three points per stone in gote, a pittance even in the endgame stages, worth much less in the opening!

Worse than this, however is the fact that the marked stones, which have forgone territory for outward strength, will now be completely wasted. They will simply stand there with no purpose. I count eight such stones (marked). In extreme parlance, this is like SKIPPING YOUR TURN EIGHT TIMES IN THE OPENING.

If Black can avoid this huge a blunder, and with equal play, the game should clearly favor him at this point. Should he take the point a and settle his stones at the top, the game will be over immediately.
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by jts »

Wow, Phoenix, I haven't disagreed so much with someone's analysis in a while! :-)

First of all, I think you might be confusing the temperature of a positions with the average efficiency of a position. In general, trading fourth-line territory for fifth-line influence is considered to be very good, even in the opening. Fourth-line territory is efficient to the tune of slightly less than three points per stone. (Of course, each stone played in the pushing battle will be worth much more than 3 points, because it threatens to bend around or jump ahead of the opponent's stones.)

But conversely, it doesn't make sense to count all 20 of the marked points for white! The points around o18, for example, are probably white's already, in virtue of his strength around there.

But then on the third hand, you don't give white credit for other points that the hypothetical stones get him. F18, E18 and D17 alone would be worth at least 10 points in the corner. All the marked stones together would be worth around 20 points in the center-top area (the area containing the now-dead stones at F17 and J16).

Now, would that be enough to win if W played the marked 8 moves while B played 8 moves elsewhere? Perhaps not, but W might only need two plays there to effectively connect his groups. He only needs to add extra stones if B strengthens himself locally.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by Bill Spight »

Let's compare combs. Should White respond in the top left corner or on the bottom side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . B . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . W . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


One way to compare plays is to give White one play and Black the other, and vice versa.

IMO, the reply in the top left is better. The stand on the bottom side is good for both territory and thickness, but the reply in the top left not only makes a base for White and sketches out a framework, it threatens to attack the Black group. Yes, White can handle the attack if Black makes the double kakari, but why make trouble for yourself? (In the first diagram White can easily sacrifice the hane'd stone.)

Besides, having eaten the two Black stones in the top right, White is a little bit ahead. Why complicate the game?
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri May 17, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EdLee »

Bill,
Bill Spight wrote:Let's compare combs.
What's a comb? :)
toki4sun2.jpg
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by jts »

@Ed - he means combination.

@Bill - this question bears some similarity to the opening of a game I played a week or two ago. Would you care to comment?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . 0 . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts on 9 and 10?
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

jts, thanks.
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by Unusedname »

jts wrote:
@Ed - he means combination.

@Bill - this question bears some similarity to the opening of a game I played a week or two ago. Would you care to comment?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . 0 . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts on 9 and 10?


I like black on this board.
After he double approaches white looks like he is all on one side and 6 is really close.

As far as this game. I would respond to the kick since there is a lot of space between the kicking stones and their friends.
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by Boidhre »

jts wrote:
@Ed - he means combination.

@Bill - this question bears some similarity to the opening of a game I played a week or two ago. Would you care to comment?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . 0 . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts on 9 and 10?


I read something by Yilun Yang (I think it was one of his Workshop Lectures books) that said a stone in the fuseki outnumbered as 3-1 is normally too costly to try to save (normally) and that tenuki was nearly always the correct response as spending another move to completely subdue the stone was too slow at that stage of the game for your opponent so you normally come out with some aji. This may or may not help you.
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by Aphelion »

jts wrote:
@Ed - he means combination.

@Bill - this question bears some similarity to the opening of a game I played a week or two ago. Would you care to comment?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . 0 . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts on 9 and 10?


IMO, Black is better off here as W6 looks overconcentrated and missplaced. I believe the problem was actually W8, which I would have played at Q6 or R6 locally.
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by quietimes »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . 6 X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . 4 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My first thought is to hit here on the left side (above). Go low to get a base. If I go to the fourth line I fear there would be a cut under. If I went above the white stone (below) I don't feel there is as much of an opportunity. Same to more risk with less potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . 6 X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . 4 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The last thought that hit me was to go on the lower left side (below)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . 6 X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . 4 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However that would not maintain a sente like pressure. So I discarded it. Likley will close up the lower left side after I divvy up the lower left. Hit tengen eventually.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . 6 X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . 4 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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bgrieco
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Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco

Post by bgrieco »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . 6 X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . 4 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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