Age & Improvement

[Boidhre]

At the end of the 1 year period I will be stronger than the 7 year old, without question.

First: Why?

Second: The proposition isn't that the 7 year old will gain strength faster than the 30 year old, it's that the 7 year old will peak higher than the 30 year old in strength.

[skydyr]

At the end of the 1 year period I will be stronger than the 7 year old, without question.

First: Why?

Second: The proposition isn't that the 7 year old will gain strength faster than the 30 year old, it's that the 7 year old will peak higher than the 30 year old in strength.

I agree with the Second statement, but I think that the primary reason is that the 7 year old will be able to devote much more time to go than the 30 year old. Most 7 years olds don't have children to take care of, or a living that needs to be earned.

[Boidhre]

I agree with the Second statement, but I think that the primary reason is that the 7 year old will be able to devote much more time to go than the 30 year old. Most 7 years olds don't have children to take care of, or a living that needs to be earned.

One of the key things a 7 year old lacks is the adult's or teenager's ability (but especially an adult's) to sacrifice now for reward later. Adults are able to put themselves through pain for several years for a cookie at the end, children find this kind of idea alien to them for quite a while. It's rare to find a kid under 8 who's able to do this very well. Some would put that age older. You need to force a young child to learn/practice/whatever (this could be quite subtly done but it's rather necessary with the vast majority of young children). You do to a fairly large extent need to take some of their childhood away from them. For a Western reference look at the training regimes forced on young children by parents wanting to give them a shot at professional classical musicianship. Or the training regime done by the Polgar sisters.

For every 7 year old working as hard as possible at go, or violin or chess there's an adult standing behind them encouraging/goading/whatever to make it happen.

[Bill Spight]

I am 30 years old.

A hypothetical experiment: I am a complete novice at go and I am paired with a 7 year old complete novice. Both of us have one year to devote to studying go with no other life obligations or external considerations. We both study on similar routines with the same quality and volume of personalized instruction. I might not play as many games or complete as many tsumego as the 7 year old, but we devote the same amount of time to the two activities. (Perhaps I play longer games, or review more, or my approach to tsumego is different, or I choose to read a go book, or I'm just frankly slower.)

At the end of the 1 year period I will be stronger than the 7 year old, without question.

Make it a week or a month, and maybe you are right. You know how to study efficiently. But after a year I think that the smart money is on the kid. Their brains are more plastic, and there is less knowledge to interfere with new knowledge.

[jts]

I agree with the Second statement, but I think that the primary reason is that the 7 year old will be able to devote much more time to go than the 30 year old. Most 7 years olds don't have children to take care of, or a living that needs to be earned.

One of the key things a 7 year old lacks is the adult's or teenager's ability (but especially an adult's) to sacrifice now for reward later. Adults are able to put themselves through pain for several years for a cookie at the end, children find this kind of idea alien to them for quite a while. It's rare to find a kid under 8 who's able to do this very well. Some would put that age older. You need to force a young child to learn/practice/whatever (this could be quite subtly done but it's rather necessary with the vast majority of young children). You do to a fairly large extent need to take some of their childhood away from them. For a Western reference look at the training regimes forced on young children by parents wanting to give them a shot at professional classical musicianship. Or the training regime done by the Polgar sisters.

For every 7 year old working as hard as possible at go, or violin or chess there's an adult standing behind them encouraging/goading/whatever to make it happen.

Many children are able to focus in an uncanny way that few adults can. A perfectly normal child will play a number of incredibly boring, repetitive games. If a child decides he's fascinated by cars or baseball, he's going to know an awful lot about cars or baseball. Adults lose interest in things much more rapidly. It's not that children can put up with the monotony of playing Go for the sake of future reward, it's that they are capable of really enjoying things that most adults find at least a little bit monotonous.

But I think we may be talking about different things. I'm mostly thinking about why people who start go younger tend to improve faster (measured in years). But this improvement is almost exclusively in the amateur ranks.

[Boidhre]

I agree with the Second statement, but I think that the primary reason is that the 7 year old will be able to devote much more time to go than the 30 year old. Most 7 years olds don't have children to take care of, or a living that needs to be earned.

One of the key things a 7 year old lacks is the adult's or teenager's ability (but especially an adult's) to sacrifice now for reward later. Adults are able to put themselves through pain for several years for a cookie at the end, children find this kind of idea alien to them for quite a while. It's rare to find a kid under 8 who's able to do this very well. Some would put that age older. You need to force a young child to learn/practice/whatever (this could be quite subtly done but it's rather necessary with the vast majority of young children). You do to a fairly large extent need to take some of their childhood away from them. For a Western reference look at the training regimes forced on young children by parents wanting to give them a shot at professional classical musicianship. Or the training regime done by the Polgar sisters.

For every 7 year old working as hard as possible at go, or violin or chess there's an adult standing behind them encouraging/goading/whatever to make it happen.

Many children are able to focus in an uncanny way that few adults can. A perfectly normal child will play a number of incredibly boring, repetitive games. If a child decides he's fascinated by cars or baseball, he's going to know an awful lot about cars or baseball. Adults lose interest in things much more rapidly. It's not that children can put up with the monotony of playing Go for the sake of future reward, it's that they are capable of really enjoying things that most adults find at least a little bit monotonous.

But I think we may be talking about different things. I'm mostly thinking about why people who start go younger tend to improve faster (measured in years). But this improvement is almost exclusively in the amateur ranks.

We're thinking about different things. You're thinking about the aspects of the work that needs to be done that the kid enjoys, I'm thinking about the aspects that the kid hates but are necessary to achieve the goal. Usually there's some of both in any difficult goal.

[wineandgolover]

There is a lot of adult optimism here, which is pretty special. Those with this attitude haven't seen how fast kids learn, and haven't noticed their own gentle degradation. Alas, the latter is real.

That said, I fully expect to keep improving at go, just not quite as fast as a similarly-dedicated smart kid, and with a lower ceiling.

Don't you think there is a good reason that all really strong players start very young?

[RobertJasiek]

That most strong Asian players start young has two reasons: a) there are age limits for becoming pro, b) those starting late have to compete with taking time for earning money.

[zslane]

I learned how to program computers when I was 16. My brain was still elastic and spongy enough to absorb new concepts very rapidly. But the single most salient reason why I progressed so quickly and so effortlessly to expert level was that I had a knack for it that led me to become obsessively fascinated with every aspect of it. Not a single thing felt tedious or monotonous or uninteresting. Even debugging code was a stimulating mental exercise; a kind of game, if you will, that never got boring.

Apply that kind of comprehensive fascination to a game like Go or chess, and anyone with enough time to devote to that obsession is going to get very good very quickly (relatively speaking). It is also my belief that having a "natural aptitude" for something makes improvement easier and faster, which makes it more fun which adds to the feedback cycle of success.

Any child lacking the afore-mentioned obsessive fascination with Go is unlikely to become a pro no matter how elastic their brains are. And chances are they won't acquire that fascination, or be able to sustain it long, if they don't also have the aptitude to make rapid improvement easy and fun, at least in the early phases (like up to 1-kyu).

[Thunkd]

I'm already 23 years old, but is it still possible for me to reach my maximum potential? Is it still possible for one to reach a professional level through dedication and hard work (something I have not yet shown.) even if they're in their twenties?

The simple truth is that most people will never be professionals, regardless of when they start. If becoming a pro is the deciding factor for you, then you should just quit right now. Of course you should also quit your job and all your other hobbies as well. Unless you are an incredibly rare person you will never be one of the top people in any field or hobby you attempt. That's simply a fact of numbers... there are billions of people in the world and only one of you and it's exceedingly unlikely that you'll be the one out of billions that rises to the top. Almost certainly if you haven't already identified that passion and devoted all your time and focus towards it already.

But so what? The joy of go is in the playing. In the glimpsing of the subtle beauty and incredibly depth of the game. Of continually getting better at the game. Not in being one of the best players in the world. One of the members of my go club is a 7dan amateur. It's unlikely he will ever get better than that (although that in itself is a huge accomplishment) but he sometimes talks of being bored by go. I would rather be a much lower ranked player and still love go and love playing and continue to eke along getting better than get to be great but lose interest in playing.

[often]

I'm already 23 years old, but is it still possible for me to reach my maximum potential? Is it still possible for one to reach a professional level through dedication and hard work (something I have not yet shown.) even if they're in their twenties?

1. What do you think your maximum potential could be?

2. I shall now recount to you a story of me and my teacher last year around April.

Me: "I'd like to go in as AGA 3D for go congress this year"
Teacher: "Sure, that's probably do-able"
Me: "Do you think I could improve to AGA5D?"
Teacher: "That depends"
Me: "On what?"
Teacher: "Do you want to spend 8 hours a day studying go for the next 4 months?"
Me: "Not really...."
Teacher: "Then don't worry about it."

[hailthorn011]

I'm already 23 years old, but is it still possible for me to reach my maximum potential? Is it still possible for one to reach a professional level through dedication and hard work (something I have not yet shown.) even if they're in their twenties?

1. What do you think your maximum potential could be?

2. I shall now recount to you a story of me and my teacher last year around April.

Me: "I'd like to go in as AGA 3D for go congress this year"
Teacher: "Sure, that's probably do-able"
Me: "Do you think I could improve to AGA5D?"
Teacher: "That depends"
Me: "On what?"
Teacher: "Do you want to spend 8 hours a day studying go for the next 4 months?"
Me: "Not really...."
Teacher: "Then don't worry about it."

I think if I had a teacher, I could easily spend 8 hours a day studying Go. Only problem is I'd only have maybe 2-3 months of such available time.

But to answer the first question, I do not know. For all I know, I could potentially be the strongest player ever or I could potentially be a forever 5k. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that there is a glass ceiling there in terms of how far I can progress, but I can't really give a solid answer.

[wineandgolover]

I'm already 23 years old, but is it still possible for me to reach my maximum potential? Is it still possible for one to reach a professional level through dedication and hard work (something I have not yet shown.) even if they're in their twenties?

1. What do you think your maximum potential could be?

2. I shall now recount to you a story of me and my teacher last year around April.

Me: "I'd like to go in as AGA 3D for go congress this year"
Teacher: "Sure, that's probably do-able"
Me: "Do you think I could improve to AGA5D?"
Teacher: "That depends"
Me: "On what?"
Teacher: "Do you want to spend 8 hours a day studying go for the next 4 months?"
Me: "Not really...."
Teacher: "Then don't worry about it."

And there is more than a little bit of a gulf between AGA 5D and 1P.

[HermanHiddema]

Fact is, nobody who started over the age of 20 has ever made professional, and almost nobody has managed it even when starting as a teenager (and none of those are top players).

So, realistically, to make pro level, you need to start as a child. (Besides the fact that you need a lot of perseverance, stamina and talent).

[often]

I'll go ahead and be the meanest guy in this thread. a la Seymour Skinner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHsinpmpZZA

I think if I had a teacher, I could easily spend 8 hours a day studying Go. Only problem is I'd only have maybe 2-3 months of such available time.

I think you answered your own question of whether you could really improve to become a pro, or devote enough time/study to becoming one. If all it took was 8 hours a day of 2-3 months continual study to become pro, then you'd see a ton of more strong players.

I checked up on your KGS info, and hate to be brutally honest, but if you're a KGS 6k mostly playing against bots and refusing to play slow rated games, you're probably not improving enough on your own anyway. You also have no idea yet what it takes to get stronger both in technique and knowledge needed.

Let's not forget that typically a good teacher might cost around 300 for 10 lessons. If we were to assume you were taking lessons every weekday for 3 months straight that's 60 lessons, or 1800 bucks.

I'm not going to say you can't do it, but you haven't shown the impetus for it yet and saying you'll do it tomorrow doesn't mean it'll happen. Come back and talk about pro possibilities when you're stronger or show the drive.