#217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Thu May 23, 2013 5:39 am

Ed has agreed to play an even game with me despite our difference in strength. I'm very thankful for this chance to learn.

Nigiri

Komi: 6,5
Scoring: Japanese

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I will make it open book and open database (though I don't have a database, but I'll allow myself to learn about new josekis)
I plan to direct my studies to the phase of the game, i.e. while in the opening I may study the opening with pro game commentaries, and read about counting and endgame while in yose. This way I can calmly try to apply some of the new ideas and concepts that I learn and see what comes out of it. I might make long commentaries full of nonsense, forgive me in advance ^^°

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu May 23, 2013 9:13 am

Don't worry, Amelia. He's a pushover.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu May 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Nigiri:

. Now let's see...
You had 4 :white:

, so you go first.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Thu May 23, 2013 10:34 pm

I hope you have fun

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EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri May 24, 2013 1:52 am

Good game.

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Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Fri May 24, 2013 12:55 pm

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My one and only fuseki litterature since I started playing go is Opening Theory Made Easy. My usual plan is to stick to basics (corners, sides, extend from shimari, make boxes, etc.) then fight it off in the middle game.
It frequently looks like that:

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A week ago though, I started reading "learning from pro games" and learned about lots of other openings. I want to try something new. Hence 3-4 in the other direction.

The continuations I'm considering:

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(Of course, EdLee has other options than this 4).

I don't want to play A, it looks a bit boring.
B is the chinese fuseki, which normally leads pretty fast to some mean fights around A.
C can lead to the Kobayashi fuseki (in which case invasions on the bottom or around A are also quite probable)
D would try to develop the top instead
E is less usual, it's the move that is used in a game I currently study between Chen Yaoye and Kong Jie. The reason for this move is that the bottom and top are considered miai, so black tries to get in white's way on the left side.
If white plays a pincer, black then takes the corner.

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White is happy to get a wall facing his lower left corner, black takes solid points. To me this looks better for white than for black but in the game, white prefered to play like this:

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However I suspect EdLee would rather pincer, and could I deal with that white wall? It makes it easy for white to create a big moyo.

Pretty much all of those moves are scary. I can avoid some complications by closing the shimari but it's less fun. So I haven't decided. I'm probably going to go for the fun.

Ed can also play W4 at 3-4 himself. This will limit my possibilities regarding the direction of an approach move, but many of the options above remain playable. He might also want to approach my corner immediately, in which case A-D look interesting:

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A pincer a bit wide would work well with my stone in the upper corner.

We will see.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri May 24, 2013 7:56 pm

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Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Fri May 24, 2013 9:40 pm

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So I'm going for this:

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I've never played a named fuseki in my life and I usually go for calm, territorial strategies. This is more or less all I know about this opening:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KobayashiFuseki
Depending on whether or not white allows it, I will further my studies about it.

TIM82 · Post by **TIM82** » Fri May 24, 2013 11:23 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 1 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 2 O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Amelia wrote:To me this looks better for white than for black but in the game, white prefered to play like this:

I'm not saying this as an absolute truth, but I personally would be unforcortable as white in upper diagram: all my stones are on left side, and IMHO a stone is needed there still soon - now the space in the middle is too wide, especialy considering all kinds of stupid aji in the top corner wall. But if white adds a stone, black gets sente, and will have stones on two sides of board (or three if plays on the bottom) compared to white on one side only - much faster development.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat May 25, 2013 12:39 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat May 25, 2013 12:50 am

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:24 am

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Ed thwarted plan A, so let's go for plan B ^^

The point of the Kobayashi opening that I considered is to make the game a fighting game. In this position I can still attack white, however how I would benefit from it is less clear. White has the right side, the bottom and the corner as potential areas to settle and I can't defend all.

Some possibilities:
One basic joseki that I use a lot is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White makes himself comfortable on the right side. It limits the potential of my hoshi stone, so I'm not thrilled.

What about a pincer?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The one point pincer makes white run more, but white can counter-attack the pincer stone, which again makes black prospects on that side much smaller.

The point of the three points pincer that I played is to pressure white a bit and at the same time develop a potential black area on the top right. It's another move that I saw in the Chen Yaoye - Kong Jie game that I mentioned earlier and I think it can work well in this position.

Possible developments:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 6 4 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 5 3 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I get territory and sente, and develop towards my approach move earlier on the bottom left. White gets thickness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 2 X 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 3 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White gets the corner. Again I have potential on the bottom and sente.
I still need to double check this one though.
Both of those are fine with me. Next I can play another move on the bottom, for example H4, and white then should probably start to worry about his bottom left stone.

Let's see what Ed thinks about it.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat May 25, 2013 1:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 8 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat May 25, 2013 1:03 pm

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:29 pm

Sparked by EdLee's comment on the Chinese opening...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 b . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . c . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This won't come as a surprise to anyone, but this is a transposed diagram of a dynamic opening. White invades the Chinese formation immediately at :w2:

. Black disregards this, considering it already pincered and approaches at :b3:

, perhaps as a probe.

White does not care for it and presses with :w4:

. The onus is now on both players to justify their tenuki. Will Black double approach around a? Or will he respond in the lower right corner around b or c?

I for one would dislike the stone at :b1:

so easily losing its purpose as a pincer, so would double approach. Let's see what Amelia thinks. :mrgreen:

Life In 19x19

#217 EdLee vs. Amelia

#217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia