#217 EdLee vs. Amelia

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Phoenix,
Phoenix wrote:I don't get EdLee's "messy variations" and "despite the ladder" comments. :scratch:
It's because I was completely confused about the ladder. :)
I thought the ladder was good for B. I would've played Takao's variation, extend to :w3: directly,
without the (a) atari first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm15
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Amelia
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Was expecting some kind of double approach:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Amelia
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I hesitated quite a bit on this one just to end with a standard joseki answer... I'm still driven to the bottom and look for good moves around K3, I'm not sure why. All that to end up with the conclusion that it's not the important area to play in right now.

If the usual joseki goes on I'll (finally) extend on the bottom. Then I'll have to look for a way to develop my position at the top. I've made points but my position at the bottom is still also fairly low. I need to balance that somehow.
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Amelia
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . 1 . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry for the delay.

I'm spending too much time procrastinating and not enough actually thinking, so I decided to just go for the obvious move. Basically letting white play play at 21 is too painful. So tenuki isn't an option. Extending further is tempting but white has some good backup to invade later and my two stones on the left would become very weak very quickly. So joseki move it is. If white further extends on the side to complete the joseki, I guess the top will be the next biggest place for both of us.
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by drmwc »

Black has played well so far. However, it seems to me that the last move is a slight mistake and should have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black is low on the lower side, so heading toward the sentre is more important here.
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by skydyr »

drmwc wrote:
Black has played well so far. However, it seems to me that the last move is a slight mistake and should have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black is low on the lower side, so heading toward the sentre is more important here.


That doesn't encourage white to slip underneath from the group on the right?
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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Post by drmwc »

skydyr wrote:
drmwc wrote:
Black has played well so far. However, it seems to me that the last move is a slight mistake and should have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black is low on the lower side, so heading toward the centre is more important here.


That doesn't encourage white to slip underneath from the group on the right?


It's unclear to me how W can do that easily. For example:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . 4 . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . 3 2 . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The exachnage of 23 for 24 is usually crude. However, here it looks good since W becomes overconcentrated. Normally, the shape made by stones 22 and 24 is very strong. However, here W's group is too close for it be effective.

Then 25 grabs a nice point in the centre, and it should help to alleviate the impact of W's thickness.

Alternatively, W could try this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . 3 5 . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This could well be an overplay. I don't see how W can connect or cut after B 23 here. Even if W can achieve life, it is unlikely to be a good result. B will become thick, and already has a lot of territory.

As played, B will be very low on the lower side. For example:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 8 . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . 4 . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 X . 5 1 . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The forcing moves at 24 and 26 are helpful in developing a scary central moyo.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Amelia, no problem. I'm super slow. :)
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm22
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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