Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

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logan
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Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by logan »

I'm interested in seeing where you think Black should play next. I will post the game continuation in a couple of days.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Phoenix
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by Phoenix »

I'm considering the circled areas, but I'll need to read more to make a choice. I feel Black's J15 group is safe enough because of White's weakness at and around 'a'. Also, 'b' looks like a killing move and I'm not sure why it hasn't been played yet.

The marked Black stones seem to be in danger of damezumari, but I don't see a way for White to take advantage of it. White's E6 group doesn't seem attackable yet. Of the circled points I'm most wary of the one I put at H6 because though it reinforces a key area, it doesn't have much potential considering White has a lot of room to maneuver, as well as his hoshi stone in the bottom-right.

I don't know how to reinforce a large knight's move efficiently, and I'm pretty sure it can't be done in sente. The board is too dynamic to lose sente at this stage.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O C . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O a . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O b O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O B B . . X X X X X C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So I'll get back to you before you post the rest. :mrgreen:
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illluck
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by illluck »

@Phoenix:
I have no clue about where the next move should be, but "b" doesn't kill. White can play as below and the two "a" are miai.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O C . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O a . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O 1 O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O B B 4 3 X X X X X C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a B 2 a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Where I might play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O 1 O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O B B . . X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
To me this looked like an important move. It first threatens to connect all of black's groups on the top and second removes an eye from white's group. White will then, however, kill the marked stones. This is the only option for white, so all black gets is two stones and his top connected in gote in exchange for white's group escaping and linking with his group on the bottom in sente. There seems to be no time for this move, but I'd like to get it at some point.
I see now. There is no time for a net and the ladder doesn't work because of two ladder breakers...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Not enough of a net
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O 1 O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O B B 4 3 X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 8 5 B 2 6 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 B O X . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Circled stones are ladder breakers
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O C . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O 1 O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O B B 4 3 X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 B 2 6 8 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B W X 7 0 O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . X O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X O O X W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by moyoaji on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Splatted
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by Splatted »

Here are my thoughts. I accidentaly read moyoaji's post because it was the one that showed when I opened the thread, but restrained myself from reading anyone else's.

I'm almost certain that killing with G14 is the wrong answer because black's groups all seem strong, and being forced to physically capture would be pretty dismal. (And possibly more profitable for white than black)

Also, both killing and ensuring life are gote. It's worth almost no points to white so he can't afford to save it in exchange for letting black profit elsewhere because he just won't have enough points to win. Similarly, it's not worth so many points that black can just take it and be content. I think both players shoudl wait until the rest of the board is more settled before coming back to it.
I think the correct move is R18.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Strengthening the Q16 stones helps deal with the Q15 aji and strengthens what I believe to be black's two weakest groups: J16 and Q16. It's also important because white's L16 group also seems quite week, but that could easily and profitably be fixed by taking advantage of black's weakness with a move like R17.
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shapenaji
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by shapenaji »

EDIT: Should have actually just put the variation I'm protecting against
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 3 2 X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 X 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a real threat for white, since all the ladders are broken and black will only have 2 liberties, so nets don't work.

so then the question is, what's the best way to protect and keep up the attack on the left side,

my gut is that the simple fix is what we want, there are complicated ways to fix, but nothing seems as good as just the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by John Fairbairn »

I'm interested in the fact that the OP evidently thought that the next move (Black 98) was worthy of comment - and it is easy enough to see why, though devotees of Go Seigen may find it obvious. But the great guoshou Xu Xingyou didn't think this move worthy of comment and instead praised Black 80 (O13, which was played before O15). The reason was that Black 80 led to two stunning sacrifice moves at the top and so a large territory on the right about 60 moves later. Once you see how it unfolds, you can understand that this is implicit in the position already and almost inexorable, so it is not really a matter of deep reading but of insight, and that is what appealed to Xu. Moreover, I'd think that there's a good chance that many amateurs would think that Black 80 is the most boring move on the board.

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by gogameguru »

shapenaji wrote:
EDIT: Should have actually just put the variation I'm protecting against
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 3 2 X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 X 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a real threat for white, since all the ladders are broken and black will only have 2 liberties, so nets don't work.

so then the question is, what's the best way to protect and keep up the attack on the left side,

my gut is that the simple fix is what we want, there are complicated ways to fix, but nothing seems as good as just the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
@shapenaji
I think connecting at H8 is small and throws away a good opportunity. It's basically a one move threat that provokes white to live. White's lower left group looks too flexible to attack severely. It would be better to make the threat more indirectly and gain a more tangible benefit if you can.
@everyone
Since white's basically relying on a ladder to live (and there's also the potential of forcing white to cut at H8 and then squeezing with a net) a better strategy should be to start a fight around the bottom or bottom right and force white to to spend another move making life, while black makes two moves in a row around the bottom.

Sorry, no time to make proper diagrams today :(, but I'm talking about moves like A and B in the diagram below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 A or B look good.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O e O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . b . , . . . . a O . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . X . W . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If I were black, I think just attaching at P4 (A) looks natural and good. It's a ladder breaker for the H8 (C) cut, so it threatens to kill white's top left center group indirectly, while also protecting the cutting point and gaining the advantage in the lower right (damaging white's corner and taking a one move advantage there). I think white will have to fall back to G15 (E) after that.

At first, the diagonal move at H4 (B) also looks plausible. The strategy's somewhat similar: a lot of moves around the bottom center will be sente for black (indirectly threatening to kill white's top left center group), so eventually white will have to spend a move saving his weak group and black will get two moves in a row in the fighting at the bottom.

Because of that, if black plays H4 (B), white's J3 (marked) will basically be paralyzed in terms of running away. However the aji around E3 (D) looks like it will be annoying later on, and white could play to sacrifice the marked stone for a benefit in the corner, or to connect under. Black would really like to be confident that he could attack white's lower left group effectively if white connected under (from D to the marked stone) and made black thick. But since black B will probably provoke white C immediately, instead of just living (and the cutting point isn't protected this way, unlike with the move at A), white will become thick and black can't seriously bank on attacking at all.

Because of all that, I think we should reject moves like B and C. Black A is bigger and more active.
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by logan »

John Fairbairn wrote:I'm interested in the fact that the OP evidently thought that the next move (Black 98) was worthy of comment - and it is easy enough to see why, though devotees of Go Seigen may find it obvious. But the great guoshou Xu Xingyou didn't think this move worthy of comment and instead praised Black 80 (O13, which was played before O15). The reason was that Black 80 led to two stunning sacrifice moves at the top and so a large territory on the right about 60 moves later. Once you see how it unfolds, you can understand that this is implicit in the position already and almost inexorable, so it is not really a matter of deep reading but of insight, and that is what appealed to Xu. Moreover, I'd think that there's a good chance that many amateurs would think that Black 80 is the most boring move on the board.

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!
As can be seen in the discussion, this position has a way of almost magically guiding players in the right direction -- even though the position first appears so confusing and dynamic. It also asks players to assess the status of a group and ask "Why hasn't Black capture this yet?" So I chose this position not out of great esteem for a particular move, but because I thought people might find it fun, interesting, and instructive. After I reveal the move, I think some people may gain a better sense of the way Longshi plays and how to handle this kind of position in their own games.

As for Xu Xingyou, the followup move was standard technique in classic Chinese go (the kind of standard technique that Go Seigen incorporated into his game), so normally he wouldn't have seen a need to comment.
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by logan »

Together everyone has essentially solved the problem (good job!), so I'm going to go ahead and post the continuation ahead of time :)

Continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O 8 O X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O X 7 6 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 4 3 X X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And here's the full game

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oren
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by oren »

John Fairbairn wrote: So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!
I'm wondering where else this occurs. Go Seigen and Yoda Norimoto at least don't think the 'Ear Reddening Move' was all that interesting, but it's now one of the most famous in Go history.
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Re: Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

Post by HermanHiddema »

John Fairbairn wrote:I'm interested in the fact that the OP evidently thought that the next move (Black 98) was worthy of comment - and it is easy enough to see why, though devotees of Go Seigen may find it obvious. But the great guoshou Xu Xingyou didn't think this move worthy of comment and instead praised Black 80 (O13, which was played before O15). The reason was that Black 80 led to two stunning sacrifice moves at the top and so a large territory on the right about 60 moves later. Once you see how it unfolds, you can understand that this is implicit in the position already and almost inexorable, so it is not really a matter of deep reading but of insight, and that is what appealed to Xu. Moreover, I'd think that there's a good chance that many amateurs would think that Black 80 is the most boring move on the board.

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!
I think that pros and amateurs are very similar in which moves they comment on. They comment on moves that surprised them, moves that they themselves would not have considered. The difference, then, lies in what they consider ordinary.

I must say that in this case I dismissed P4 because I thought it too ordinary. The ladder, and its relevance to the life of white's group, are very obvious to me. So a ladder breaker would be an obvious continuation, and P4 is, to me, the most obvious candidate. Attaching to 4-4 is a very typical ladder breaker.

Given the fact that logan posted this game of Huang Longshi with "black to play" in the title, my immediate assumption was: Black's next move must be extraordinary. So it can't be P4, that's about as ordinary a move as they come. :)
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