The AGA makes me sad.

[Javaness]

EDIT: I want to make clear, the AGF is another ballgame, you guys rock

The AGF does seem like a nice organisation to me too, and Mr Laird is on its board - which makes me feel that he has always been out there to do good work, despite the high profile mistake he made.

It is a pity Phil Waldron left, as he seemed very competent. Although I have to admit I had briefly forgotten he'd left If Phil had been doing the spot tournament I feel that I would have announced all the games at the moment they started.

[shapenaji]

EDIT: I want to make clear, the AGF is another ballgame, you guys rock

The AGF does seem like a nice organisation to me too, and Mr Laird is on its board - which makes me feel that he has always been out there to do good work, despite the high profile mistake he made.

It is a pity Phil Waldron left, as he seemed very competent. Although I have to admit I had briefly forgotten he'd left If Phil had been doing the spot tournament I feel that I would have announced all the games at the moment they started.

I took issue with Mr. Laird's actions on the Jie Li/Ming-jiu debacle. But it's nice to hear he has a deep interest in go education and outreach.

I agree with the second point completely, though I would give Edward Zhang a break, it was his first tournament.

[deja]

AGA does one of those and is moving toward a second. Current we have a number of chapters hosted at http://chapters.usgo.org. Click on that link or send an email to webmaster@usgo.org and I can help get space for your club.

Have you looked at our chapters page lately? It does get updated and I know its old web tech. We are currently waiting on one database to go live so we can start switching that code out for code developed for http://www.promotego.org. This will be beneficial for you guys since it will have a login system for updating and helping people find your club.

Current projects being worked on(to my knowledge): AGAGD, Ratings system, Membership DB, Chapters DB(pretty much done), moving to google apps, finding a cms for the website

Currently Andy Okun is leading a group of people to try and get sponsors/advertisers to put the AGA deeper in the Black. Right now we have accepted one advertiser that has their links on the bottom of each page and are in talks with a second. We are always looking for more leads and a number of us are working to get more.

Thank you for those informative updates, vash3g. And while I have your ear, a quick suggestion/request. Would you consider giving the club links their own exclusive meta-link in the sidebar - "Local Clubs" or something like that – rather than placing them under "Play Go"? More generally, I think the website's navigation could be a little more intuitive than it currently is. Apologies if this was off topic.

[daniel_the_smith]

I will not ask you guys to try to get along, I fear you haven't got it in you. But lets keep the aggressions passive and the insults witty. It will make for nicer reading.

I nominate Helel for "most consistent (and consistently entertaining) forum personality"

[tj86430]

I really think it is better to say "I'm a researcher". When you use the term "scientist" people will read in a "mad" before it.

Not everybody

[shapenaji]

I really think it is better to say "I'm a researcher". When you use the term "scientist" people will read in a "mad" before it.

I have no problems with that.

[Phelan]

I really think it is better to say "I'm a researcher". When you use the term "scientist" people will read in a "mad" before it.

I have no problems with that, mwahahahahah!

Fix'd.

[HKA]

Nick, first of all thank you for your comments at the end of your lengthy post. I would like to move on, but I must respond to your comments about my post, in hope they will help you move on.

John did not call anyone's specific post "disgraceful hounding". He did not even say that hounding occured on these forums.

I read your initial question as asking "who quit", not "who hounded". I felt it was disingenuous because you clearly knew who quit. Apparently, that is not what you meant.

Again, I can only read what you say, "the AGA never seems to have a hand in" efforts to promote go. If you mean to emphasize the "seems" at least put it before the "never".

John did not prevent anyone from defending themselves, you decided to whether necessary or not.

Sarcasm? Sure, I was offended, as Phil Waldron was, by your remark about our tournament efforts. But my praise for your skill set is sincere. You are the type of young, cool - this game is not just for geeks, Asians and old men - sort that we need spreading go. You are in the mold of Gregory Lefler, and if you think I would mention you in the same sentence as him without being sincere, then you do not know me at all.

I am sure you teach alot. That is not my point. I teach alot, I give game reviews here, almost every night on KGS to friends and their opponents, and on GoDisc tourney games. I give go demos to parents who adopt children from Asia. I taught at a korean school. And I run a club where I am the strongest person almost every week. Maybe you teach more, I hope you do.

You were talking about contributing to the AGA. My name, email and phone number are listed as a contact. For 20 years I have made sure, 95% of the time it is me, that someone brings equipment and makes sure there is a club. For the same 20 years I have given up a holiday weekend so folks can play in a tournament. I have run an Easterns, two Fujitsus, a Congress and an OZA. This is the AGA.

Again, here is the problem folks. The AGA, AGF, Nick, Obama, Hikaru and Dominos are all succeeding in getting folks interested and aware of go. How can we get the AGA to stop tripping over itself and get more of these folks involved?

[Kirby]

... How can we get the AGA to stop tripping over itself and get more of these folks involved?

I guess the question that comes to my mind is, "What does the AGA want to do?".

I am an AGA member to go to tournaments. That's pretty much the only reason.

Maybe if the AGA had more clear goals, it would be easier for people to step up and try to achieve them.

[ross]

I guess the question that comes to my mind is, "What does the AGA want to do?".

I am an AGA member to go to tournaments. That's pretty much the only reason.

Maybe if the AGA had more clear goals, it would be easier for people to step up and try to achieve them.

If the AGA's goal is to "get folks interested and aware of go", then it seems like it's already succeeding with the Nicks of the world. Is there some other goal of the AGA that requires participation in its organization? Is it important to gather and organize the "independents", or is it sufficient for the AGA to say, "Good job! Keep up the good work," and then focus on other ways of getting people interested in the game?

Honest questions I don't have good answers to.

[seigenblues]

Hooray! I sure do love it when my favorite people start fighting! On the internet, even! The lack of proper nouns & intentional vagueness has also made this thread SUPER AWESOME.

Keith's point about moving on is timely, so assuming we're past the miscommunication about who-was-hounded vs. who-was-hounding, i'd like to pull out some really interesting points that came out of the discussion.

--

Re: what does the AGA want to do:

To go back to the AGA bylaws (which i've happily re-read as part of my candidacy), the stated purpose of the AGA is:

"to foster knowledge and appreciation of the game and art of "go" ... in the United States of America through publicizing the game; to encourage and assist in game activities and education; to promote tournaments, seminars, professional tours, congresses, and improvement of individual game skills throughout the nation; and to encourage intercultural and international goodwill through related activities."


With that as context...

As HKA has rightly pointed out, shapenaji's contributions to the AGA proper are tangential at best. Shapenaji -- I don't think HKA was being sarcastic at all, that it is instead a very meaningful question: Your efforts at spreading the game have all been substantive & important, but they are all outside of the AGA. Your efforts have been directly contributing to the AGA's core goals, so you've been pulling in the right direction, but contributing to the AGA's goals at the same time as criticizing it from outside may not, in total, be a net positive for the AGA.

So the question is: Do actions taken outside of the AGA towards the same goals actually help the AGA? I would say yes -- but that they could be better!

HKA hits it on the head here:

Still, despite the growth of go in this country there is still a great untapped and unorganized pool of go players - whether they be Korean or simply online. The problem for American Go is how to harness the energy of these individuals to bring about more go activity in the US. Without organization, this cannot take place.

and I think he's absolutely correct when he says that

we need a structure of clubs and tournaments throughout the country to provide the type of face to face relationships

.


So, i'd like to recast HKA's three questions in a slightly different way.

1) There are people who are already working towards the AGA's goals. How can the AGA make those people more successful?

2) How can the AGA be valuable to these people -- the surest way to "fold them in." Provide tools? Equipment? Good online resources?

3) What is the best way to leverage our national "structure of clubs & tournaments" to meet the AGA's original goals? & how do we grow that structure?


Wish i had some good answers

#1 and #2 are different. If the AGA is valuable to these external actors, they will join the AGA. If the AGA helps them succeed in their evangelizing, some of their "flock" may end up at AGA events.


Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head idea: GoDiscussions & lifein19x19 are both great forums, and show that there's a clear utility in letting the geographically disparate go players be able to talk to each other. Why not have forums like this at http://www.usgo.org/forum/ , which we can log into with our AGA #'s & set up aliases & profiles? In one swoop, that'd turn these from external discussions to internal ones. "Fostering discussion about go" certainly seems co-incident with the AGA's mission, and it depends on some interesting tech tools -- embedding sgfs, special bulletin board smileys, etc. For instance, suppose i wanted to start a go blog for my club & embed SGFs, can the AGA point me in the right direction?

I'm sure it's been discussed before -- was there any consensus?


--
re: vash3g's comments: Did you include Alf's club finder tool on your list of upcoming projects? Last I saw it was really awesome but not completely finished yet...

[HKA]

I guess the question that comes to my mind is, "What does the AGA want to do?".

I am an AGA member to go to tournaments. That's pretty much the only reason.

Maybe if the AGA had more clear goals, it would be easier for people to step up and try to achieve them.

If the AGA's goal is to "get folks interested and aware of go", then it seems like it's already succeeding with the Nicks of the world. Is there some other goal of the AGA that requires participation in its organization? Is it important to gather and organize the "independents", or is it sufficient for the AGA to say, "Good job! Keep up the good work," and then focus on other ways of getting people interested in the game?

Honest questions I don't have good answers to.

I like this post. (I know, I know, there is an "app" for that).

It is a legitimate point. Personally, I think we need to "gather and organize" in order to have bigger and better events and maybe even, someday, truly homegrown pros. I would argue without increased numbers and substantial face to face interaction, the type of trust and organization necessary cannot occur.

However, this forum, for example, continues to thrive with many of the main movers, I think, having never met each other. Of course, I would argue that this is an ideal example of an online group creating an online forum - but it is undeniable that things can be accomplished outside the traditional vision.

Whether it needs to or not, the AGA would like to gather these folks. In the old days, we were the only game in town, if you built them they would come. This is no longer the case.

[deja]

I guess the question that comes to my mind is, "What does the AGA want to do?".

I am an AGA member to go to tournaments. That's pretty much the only reason.

Maybe if the AGA had more clear goals, it would be easier for people to step up and try to achieve them.

If the AGA's goal is to "get folks interested and aware of go", then it seems like it's already succeeding with the Nicks of the world. Is there some other goal of the AGA that requires participation in its organization? Is it important to gather and organize the "independents", or is it sufficient for the AGA to say, "Good job! Keep up the good work," and then focus on other ways of getting people interested in the game?

Honest questions I don't have good answers to.

Like any volunteer organization, the AGA's primary mission is to serve its membership, i.e., to serve the needs of itself. You, me and every other AGA member are the AGA - we are the organization. It might sound trite but that's how volunteer organizations work. Agendas and change almost always come from the bottom up. So if folks are unhappy with the status quo, they need to form coalitions with specific goals and agendas, elect people who represent those agendas, and consequently change the direction of the organization. Barring a coup d'état is there really another way?

[vash3g]

re: vash3g's comments: Did you include Alf's club finder tool on your list of upcoming projects? Last I saw it was really awesome but not completely finished yet...

Alf's tool = promote go = mostly finished chapters db

[ross]

Whether it needs to or not, the AGA would like to gather these folks. In the old days, we were the only game in town, if you built them they would come. This is no longer the case.

I wonder if, rather than "gathering," the focus could be on "finding and publicizing". The AGA efforts I've been most impressed with are things like the club finder. I'd love it if I could find the non-AGA Asian "clubs" or informal gatherings somehow with such a tool. I'm less interested in AGA-ifying those people than I am playing some Go with them (or maybe just watching some games if nobody wants to play me due to my strength). And if a few local westerners were in the same boat, maybe we'd end up with our own (possibly AGA) club as a result.