jts wrote:Of course, maybe this speaks to how hard it is for weak players to understand what counts as "aggression" on a professional level. It's clear enough to me when I review for players nine stones weaker... they use "aggressive" as a euphemism for "not what I expected" or "hard to deal with" or "exploiting an obvious weakness that I should have patched up twenty moves ago". I'm sure my understanding of aggression is defective in the same way.
I agree. No professional player is going to be as territorial as the most territorial players you meet as an amateur. The most "aggressive" professional is going to be far less aggressive than many amateurs.
But I don't think fighting in go is about aggression. I think it's more about creating opportunities.
Yuan Zhou said the most intriguing thing about this fighting philosophy. He said that territory that is made by fighting is considered by proponents to be more secure. The fighting settles it. You don't have to worry as much about weird aji later on in the game as you would with the traditional (Japanese) style. I don't know if anyone else agrees with this, but to the extent that it is true, that's interesting to me. If we, as amateurs, have to play our endgames in 30 second byoyomi, having a lot of aji to worry about is a nuisance. Well, I guess if it's your opponent's bad aji, it's okay...
I am not sure what caused this ill-tempered outburst; did the budgie bite you that morning? John spends a remarkable amount of money buying books, newspapers and magazines from China, Japan and Korea and uses these sources to illustrate and entertain. ...
May we ask for details of your contributions to the subject?
Yes, I suppose it makes sense that you respond to the topic, as you two are partners. In any case, I do not need to justify my distaste for the generalized - and potentially inaccurate - statements made on the forum. For what it's worth, I have also spent a significant amount of money buying books and magazines from Japan and Korea, but it's not relevant to the topic at hand.
The arguments I made, while direct, were fair - it was John who attacked my comment (which was intended to be innocuous) in the first place, and I merely questioned the logic behind his arguments. Having a competition between who has the most "contributions" is not relevant to the accuracy of one's statements (or even fairly measurable), and misleading statements are, in my mind, the opposite of contributions.
If I played another player my rank and he beats me 2 out of every 3 games, I doubt he sees me as a rival even if we had played 1000 games together. I could argue that we play a lot so we ought to be considered rivals, but he perhaps sees me as only a steppingstone or practice material.
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Go is such a beautiful game.
Do they have to think of each other as rivals to be thought of as rivals by the go fans? By the media?
They can be rivals to each other without the media knowing, or the media can MAKE them seem like rivals even if they aren't. Yes?
In hikaru no go, akira and hikaru are rivals but the media didn't really catch on at first, it was a secret. Right?
This is the opposite, but it works similar I think.
Either way I think kirby is right, unless you lived in korea how can you say what the fans thought of the two, as rivals or not? Do you have a newspaper reference, article, or someone's word of mouth to go by?
I read an interesting essay about Seo Pong-su, i'll quote it
------------------------------------------------------------ What made Seo Bong-Soo suddenly produce, within only a few months, good results? The only thing Seo Bong-Soo did was to travel around Europe with a man called Hahn Sang-Dae. Can traveling contribute to better baduk skills? Yes it can. Seo Bong-Soo, who fell into the disgrace of “no-title” after presenting the 2nd grand slam to Cho Hun-Hyun, reclaimed 3 major titles like a sudden tidal wave. Everyone said it was the "traveling".
The energizer which recharged Seo was indeed traveling. The most significant phenomenon was Seo's return from the defeat against Cho HunHyun. Seo reclaimed titles from Cho one by one. It was like a revival for the winter of '80. Seo looked as if he had discovered the secret code to Baduk during the trip to Europe.
Seo Bong-Soo left on a sudden journey after he had given the honor of the 2nd grand slam to Cho Hun-Hyun. The man who advised Seo for the overseas trip was Hahn Sang-Dae, the first born son of the distinguished Korean language scholar Hahn Gap-Soo. Hahn Sang-Dae was an expatriate (Korean-Australian) at the time, and he resided in Australia. He was the Australian Baduk Champion. He represented Australia many times at the World Amateur Go Championships organized by Nihon Ki-in since 1979.
Hahn Sang-Dae was a scholar who lectures the Korean studies at the University of Sydney and he is also a travel expert. Seo Bong-Soo left for the trip to Europe with Him. For Seo, it was lucky and unlucky to have encountered Hahn. Hahn was a versatile intellectual, and knowledgeable about travel. For Seo, it was like traveling with a walking encyclopedia, a library, or a museum.
A season spent in Hell
Seo could not keep up with Hahn’s energy. Hahn’s fitness built up through years of horse-riding and table tennis was unbelievable. For Seo whose energy was drained by title matches and “Yatong”(break through a night), it was beyond comparison(! How dare!). Seo was not Hahn’s match counterpart. ‘Yatong” is a Korean word for staying up all night. Seo was breathless following Hahn.
Someday, Hahn drove for more than 10 hours. It was even worse when he just drove all night through. When they could not find a snack bar open in those hours, Seo was too hungry to go on. Seo pleaded to take a rest and to eat something. But his plea was like chanting in a cow’s ears. It was like 마이동풍(East wind to horse ear-not influential).
Hahn’s itinerary was very tightly planned to suit a professional traveler. All activities were being done according to the schedule. He did not do anything impulsive. In France, they rode the Roller coaster which was much more frightening and rigorous than the ones in Korea. Seo was so scared. “I could even die” Seo thought at one point. When he tried pleading look toward Hahn, he only found Hahn’s grin in return.
On a beach, glamorous girls were striding with their breasts completely naked. Hahn even did not allow time for Seo to enjoy that. He once pushed Seo into the water to build up his fitness. Seo who already had been feeling timid did not have any option but to follow Hahn and his plan. Seo’s language barrier discouraged him even more.
Travel was supposed to be an enjoyable thing. But those two months Seo had had with Hahn was literally the season spent in hell. When people talk about that trip, Seo still shivers. He vows not to go on a trip with Hahn. “I will rather change my surname than travel with him again!”
Seo made debut in Baduk with untidy hair not suitable either for a young man or a boy. It had been already 10 years that he had ground his bones and had melted his flesh for the winning and the losing. It was about time that he cleansed his body and mind. Hahn’s entry into his life, the meeting with a man called Hahn Sang Dae was fatal timing in his life.
But alas! Holing 3 titles was his limit. When he made vertical rise from a commoner to a lord with 3 crowns, his sight get narrowed again, his cleansed mind started to gather carnal anguish and his humble state of mind was replaced by conceit, may be?
(From “The History of Modern Korean Baduk ” by Lee Kwang-Koo)
Though Seo Pong-su was overpowered by Cho Hunhyun, he was the only player who could stand against Cho in 1970s in Korea. I think that the word, 'rival' isn't wrong for their relationship.
Volatile wrote:... Either way I think kirby is right, unless you lived in korea how can you say what the fans thought of the two, as rivals or not? Do you have a newspaper reference, article, or someone's word of mouth to go by?
Even as someone that has lived in Korea for a bit, and who has some experience in reading Korean sources, I don't like the idea of generalizing the entire population's sentiment:
Seo's popularity within Korea was based mainly on the fact that he was their only top player not to have trained in Japan...
There may even be a couple of people in Korea who have this sentiment. But to extend this to say that the man's popularity within an entire country is due to this reason has no factual basis.
---
That being said, this entire dialog started simply because I was trying to explain who Seo Pong-su was, using non-generalizing language. The point is, he's an interesting player who played a lot of games against Cho Hunhyun. I'll leave it at that.
For the black to play question, Snorri, I'd play b3 for the first one, and I couldn't find one I liked for the second, maybe d7? I thought about invading or reducing the bottom, but is it still too early.
And that was a great story, My_Aunt_Mary. I laughed a lot at the over the top dramatization. I also like the idea of a professional traveler.
Mikebass14 wrote:For the black to play question, Snorri, I'd play b3 for the first one, and I couldn't find one I liked for the second, maybe d7? I thought about invading or reducing the bottom, but is it still too early.
The first is a normal instinct but not a bad one. Finding the second one takes a different mindset.
to black (or 'a') is the most common continuation in this position. This is the traditional style which seeks to create stable, settled positions. Since it is played by professionals it is hard as an amateur to say it is bad---it just leads to a different game. In a fighting style, however, it is common to prevent the opponent from making an enclosure from a 3-4, 5-3 or 5-4 point. You might say that black has achieved that in this normal variation, but it's hard to be sure of white's play in the lower left.
The marked black stones would be a little heavy to pull out or defend. In fact, later black plays 'a' through 'd' in sente to discard them. Black cannot fight with advantage with the burden of a weak group. What is unusual about black's move in the actual game is that plays quite close to a classic low, strong white position, seemingly defying the conventional wisdom to play away from strength. In a territorial style, one would not be interested in the top part of the board right now, but black seeks to create a moyo large enough to entice white in invade, which he does.
I like Seo's games. In my opinion his play is very practical and natural. In that way he reminds me of Go Seigen, even though their way of playing is different.
The notion that 'fighting' is bad simply because that's what we choose to call it is simplistic. It's too rigid a way of thinking about things. We could just as well choose to call it 'negotiation' or 'compromise' and call Seo a master negotiator.
Masters of the 'fighting' style play a pure style of Go, where everything is finely balanced and calculated. Look at any game between Gu Li and Lee Sedol for an example of the depth in these sorts of games. Stepping back from that and choosing sub-optimal moves because you fear your own human fallibility is a good strategy for winning more consistently (especially if you're not in your best form). It's a good strategy for pros who have to put food on the table. But just because most pros play like that doesn't mean that it's the ideal way of playing.
As amateurs, we have the luxury of playing the kind of Go that we enjoy most.
myaunt_mary wrote:I read an interesting essay about Seo Pong-su, i'll quote it
Thanks for the essay. It's presented in a somewhat romantic light, but that definitely sounds like Dae...
Thanks for the explanation Snorri. I wouldn't have thought of that second move in a million years! It's good to know that b3 in the first position is also okay, but what was Seo's play?
I really like the idea of different people with different playing styles, but I still have only a very weak ability to recognize them on my own. It's so great to have stronger players willing to share!
to black 
(or 'a') is the most common continuation in this position. This is the traditional style which seeks to create stable, settled positions. Since it is played by professionals it is hard as an amateur to say it is bad---it just leads to a different game. In a fighting style, however, it is common to prevent the opponent from making an enclosure from a 3-4, 5-3 or 5-4 point. You might say that black has achieved that in this normal variation, but it's hard to be sure of white's play in the lower left.