Very confusing win.

Suji · Post by **Suji** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:41 pm

I just played this game on KGS, and I'm not quite sure how I won exactly. I honestly don't have a clue where to begin to self review this game. I thought I was behind the entire game right after White 36, leading to me gifting him almost the entire top :cry:

. We get to the counting stage and I somehow managed to win the game. :shock:

Any type of review would be incredibly helpful and appreciated.

My comments are in the SGF file. Oh, and I played black.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:13 pm

Here's my take on your game. I think your biggest problem was that you focused too much on saving stones that just weren't doing anything. However, white made his own set of mistakes as well, such as focusing on the middle too long instead of approaching the bottom, which let you build up thickness which purely and naturally turned the entire bottom into territory. Another mistake of his was letting his top left get sealed in and die. Stuff like this let you catch up and win.

padic · Post by **padic** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:58 pm

Not really a review, but a few comments about the last parts of the game.

The bottom is very large. If we count that as your territory (which might be rather optimistic, although white should probably have invaded much earlier than they did in the game), you were not behind, but ahead by a solid margin. If you did mentally consider that territory, and still thought you were behind, it'd probably be good to practice counting; these lessons might be helpful. In games like these where the territories are huge, it's very tempting to rely entirely on simple multiplication ("this area looks like a 6 by 10 rectangle.."), but this can easily be misleading. It's worth it to count "properly" at least once during a game so you can take into account dead stones and friendly stones inside territories.

Beyond that: the fight at the end worked out very well for you. After the fight had escalated to a certain point, that life and death situation was clearly worth more than 22.5 points, so you could say that this was where you finally won the game. Mistakes were made on both sides here, though obviously all in all you made fewer and came out on top

. One thing I noticed was a sequence at the end that shows off some moves that might be worth knowing about.

Here's what was played in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 1 and 4 are mistakes - cancel out in your favour $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X O X X 2 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . O O X O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X . O O X 4 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You ended up killing, but 1 was not a good move. You should usually have a clear plan before playing on the first line. White could've answered like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 White lives $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X O X X 2 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . O O X O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X . O O X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, there was actually a move that did kill: 1 at 2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 White dies - r1 is a false eye $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X O X X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . O O X O O 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X . O O X 2 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A more interesting sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 White captures... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X O X X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . O O X O O 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X . O O X 3 4 | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that 3 here is a good move even though it's self-atari. If white gets to play at all three points around the corner without actually playing in the corner, they'll get an eye there. 3 prevents that since it can only be captured by white actually playing in the corner.

As long as you respond, white can't get an eye where the captured stones were, either:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 ..but black kills with the throw-in. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X . O O 1 . O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:09 am

You averaged 3 seconds per move, blitz.

When :w8:

tenuki, B has this follow-up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Move 9 Variation $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . $$ | . 7 5 O 9 X . . $$ | . 8 6 0 O X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ ------------------[/go]

Continuing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 5 . . . . $$ | . 3 O X . . . . $$ | . 2 O X . . . . $$ | 4 X X O X X . . $$ | . O O O O X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ ------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

Very confusing win.

Very confusing win.

Re: Very confusing win.

Re: Very confusing win.

Re: Very confusing win.