My Problem with Professional Games

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:...so it's difficult for me to assess if Pro X is playing better than Pro Y...

All I need to know is that pro X/Y is playing way better than me.

I think Kirby makes a very important point. If a pro seems to be playing badly, then Kirby's (or whoever's) assessment of the situation is probably wrong. It's difficult to tell whether white genuinely felt under a lot of pressure during this game, and played in a way Kirby felt was bad out of hope for a mistake by black (and eventually lost by 3 because black played safely and just enough to win), or whether white felt fine about it. Either way there's a lot to learn from.

jts · Post by **jts** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:50 pm

Polama, I'm not saying your point is wrong, but I don't think the second sequence works

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$--------------------- $$- . . . . . . . . $$- . . . . 4 . . . $$- . . . O X . . . $$- . . O 3 1 6 X . $$- . . 5 O 2 O . . $$- . . X X . . . . $$- . . . . X . . . $$- . . . . . . . . $$- . . . O X X . . $$- . . . O O . . . $$- . . . . . . . . $$- . . . X O . . . $$- . . . X . . . .[/go]

Splatted · Post by **Splatted** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:10 pm

What about when you know for sure that it is a mistake? I was just going over a game from one of JF's shuei books and his opponent played a move that looked awful to me, and this was then confirmed by the commentary. I doubt that means I was right about the move though, because I still can't see how that move could seem good enough for a professional to think it was worth playing, which proves I don't really understand it. This is why whenever a pro plays a move or sequence that makes me think "this is bad, I would never play like this", I view it as demonstrating something that I don't understand.

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:17 pm

Splatted wrote:What about when you know for sure that it is a mistake? I was just going over a game from one of JF's shuei books and his opponent played a move that looked awful to me, and this was then confirmed by the commentary. I doubt that means I was right about the move though, because I still can't see how that move could seem good enough for a professional to think it was worth playing, which proves I don't really understand it. This is why whenever a pro plays a move or sequence that makes me think "this is bad, I would never play like this", I view it as demonstrating something that I don't understand.

This is generally true, but sometimes pros just make mistakes... Even 9 dans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Polama wrote:
Kirby wrote:But if I try to figure out why move Z is a good move, when it's not, I might trick myself into false reasoning.

...
The white group being pushed around in the kifu ends up having access to two areas of the board. The profitable path to life isn't obvious to me, but he's clearly got options. I also noticed that as black commits to harassing that group, white solidifies the top left corner. Now, when it ends, he has a nice view into the influence black created from the chase. That negates the value of the black group. I can even imagine white now threatening the middle black stones as a leaning attack on the lonely two black stones at the top. And as somebody else pointed out, the bottom left looks invadable.

Thanks to computers, a helpful thing you can do is flip back and forth between late in the game and the opening in the kifu. If you think black is much stronger here, where do you expect him to profit? Jump to the late game, did he? Follow the fate of weak groups: are they bordered by large black territory, implying they gave up a lot to settle? Or do they protrude into black regions, destroying profit? When what looks like territory vanishes by the end, find where that happens in the kifu. Did the player sacrifice it? What did they get in return? Or did the other player attack and destroy it? Why were they able to? When were the seeds of the invasion planted? What aji mattered? And going back again, why did the aji get left? Did the other player profit leaving the aji behind? In hindsight, does it suggest a different path? Not having to actually play out the stones, you can explore the consequences of a game very quickly.

Pro moves that don't make sense are markers to go theories or reading you don't posses yet.

Let's see...
White moves out into the center, Black extends the bottom and White invades the top. Is this what we expected?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Continuation - White invades the top $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . 5 . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . 8 9 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Twenty-one moves later White extends from the bottom right shimari with the marked stone and we are pretty much left with the question of who will get what on the right side versus what is the status of the bottom left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Continuation 2 - Right side versus bottom left $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . X O . . . X X . X . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X . . . . O 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . X 1 . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . O O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . 7 X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 5 X . . X 9 3 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . 8 . . X . W . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the end, the board looks like this. How does it compare to our expectations from the initial position in the OP?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Final Position - B+3.5 (komi 4.5) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X O . X . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O X . X X O X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X X X . O O X X . . X . X | $$ | . O O , . O X . . X O . X O X X O X . | $$ | O O X O . O O O O X O . O O X . O X O | $$ | O X X X O O X X O X X O . . O O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O X O X O O O O O O . . O . | $$ | . X O O X X X . X X X X . X X O O X O | $$ | X . X O X X . . X O O X X . X X X X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X O . O . O O , X X . | $$ | . . . X O O X X X O . O O . X O X O O | $$ | . . . X O O X O X . O . . O O O X O . | $$ | . . . X O . O O O O O X O X X . O O . | $$ | . O X X O O O O . . O X O O . X X O . | $$ | X X . . X O X . O O X . X X X X O . . | $$ | O O X X . X X X X X . X X O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X O O O O . . X X O O . O O . . | $$ | O X O O X X X X . . . X O O . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X . O O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:28 pm

The biggest reason that I don't go through pro games, is that I think they're on a level that I can't really understand without commentary. If I try to learn how to use pro moves, in most cases my opponent will go to the complicated but suboptimal resistance. If I then mess up that, it's rather sad for me.

Splatted · Post by **Splatted** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:39 am

moyoaji wrote:
Splatted wrote:What about when you know for sure that it is a mistake? I was just going over a game from one of JF's shuei books and his opponent played a move that looked awful to me, and this was then confirmed by the commentary. I doubt that means I was right about the move though, because I still can't see how that move could seem good enough for a professional to think it was worth playing, which proves I don't really understand it. This is why whenever a pro plays a move or sequence that makes me think "this is bad, I would never play like this", I view it as demonstrating something that I don't understand.

This is generally true, but sometimes pros just make mistakes... Even 9 dans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE

Lol, that video always makes me laugh but I wonder if it isn't the exception that proves the rule. I mean, even though it's literally the worst move he could possibly have played it's also pretty obvious what he hoped to gain from it, and I think that's the key point. Whether a move is good or bad there's always a reason it was played, so if you can't see what that is there must be a gap in your understanding.

It reminds me of when I used to do kendo and our teacher talked to us about how your supposed to try and feel out your opponent when your swords are touching. Advanced practitioners learn to recognise momentary lapses in concentration by how the opponent responds to this contact, but they also learn to fake these lapses which can result in the apparent foolishness of one player impaling themselves on the other's sword. Any beginner can see this is a bad idea, but learning to be tricked in to doing it is actually what they need to do to move forwards.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:16 pm

Splatted wrote:It reminds me of when I used to do kendo and our teacher talked to us about how your supposed to try and feel out your opponent when your swords are touching. Advanced practitioners learn to recognise momentary lapses in concentration by how the opponent responds to this contact, but they also learn to fake these lapses which can result in the apparent foolishness of one player impaling themselves on the other's sword. Any beginner can see this is a bad idea, but learning to be tricked in to doing it is actually what they need to do to move forwards.

I have certainly heard that the most dangerous swordsmen (or women) are absolute beginners, because they can't be expected to react in a standard way and can easily kill you in the process. Once they gain some skill, they realize how easy it is to die or be taken advantage of and suddenly they won't commit to all of the things they would beforehand.

I think in go, you see this sort of phenomenon in handicap games to some extent. Often, white is put in a position where they don't want to play a move because they know it doesn't work, but at the same time, their opponent has no idea how to handle it and will quite likely do so very incorrectly.

Life In 19x19

My Problem with Professional Games

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Re: My Problem with Professional Games