Losing on Korean Servers

[DJLLAP]

I seemed to level out at 10K on W Baduk. I seem to lose most of my games due to single large blunders that kill some of my stones during the endgame, but I nearly always come out of the middle game with a commanding lead. I think I am going to play mostly on Wbaduk for a while. Who knows, that might make my AGA/KGS rank go up a few stones too.

[SmoothOper]

KGS compared to IGS ranks are pretty obviously inflated in some ranges. I haven't played on KGS for a while but when I did at 7kyu there were a several stone difference, maybe 4kyu. The style of play is also fairly narrow on KGS, probably since everyone studies the same books.

[graemy]

Tygem players also feel more sharp to me. If you don't pay attention or lose focus for a little bit, your game could get flipped. On Kgs, it feels like you can play more leisurely games more easily. Though I think this may be because if tygem players see something they think is a weakness, they will play it whether it is or not.

[guest14679]

Not stepping into the arguments of this thread but just to add a response to the inital question:

Servers such as IGS and Tygem where you can put in your own rank will always feel a bit off. I know many KGS 1-4ds who start their rank at 12kyu on those servers and attempt to work up. At the same time I have recently learned of quite a few KGS players (most rangeing from 1kyu-9kyu) creating 5D accounts on tygem so they "can play stronger players and learn how to play" which in my opinion is a very wrong approach....but there is a 5D KGS player recommending it to them ashamed to say.

Also most westerners seem to have the perception that if their win/loss ratio is too bad... to just create another alias. Aside from that though I can say my Tygem accounts in the past have always been within 2 ranks of my KGS names. I feel Tygem deals with many more overplays but reasonable ones , while KGS seems to be filled with unreasonable overplays and players do not develop the proper way to handle them. Again this is based on my experiences and knowledge.

[DJLLAP]

Probably your'e still in sandbagg zone.

Register as a 1d on tygem, you'll be able to beat about 50%

I have been trying this out recently. I have only played 5 games thus far on my 1 Dan Tygem account, but I am at 2 wins and 3 losses. Its a bit early to say that I am stable in my rank, but I also have not felt completely outclassed by any of my opponents. Its kind of crazy that I can have both a 9k account and a 1d account on the same server.

[Mef]

Its kind of crazy that I can have both a 9k account and a 1d account on the same server.

Well, the point jts was getting at is that Tygem's ranking system is a purely descriptive one, while KGS's rating system is a predictive one. Tygem's system is meant to do nothing other than describe what you have done in the past. If you see someone rated 9k, it is obvious how they got there (they won X number of games as an 10k, or lost X number of games as a 8k). It makes no attempt to predict what may happen in the future.

On KGS if you see someone rated 9k, it may be unclear why they are there (did they win games as a 10k? Did they have an opponent who did well after they played as 12ks? Have they even played X number of games at all like the guy from tygem?). The rank signifies what the server is predicting for how they will play in the future (they will have a 33 to 66 percent winrate against other 9ks).

Some people prefer a descriptive system, because they want a rank to reflect achievement (Professional ranks are like this. A professional rank makes no attempt at predicting who is supposed to win a matchup, instead it signifies the achievements of the owner). Others prefer a predictive system because they want a rank that provides a fair match up (that is, it predicts that these two players will play at a similar strength in the future). To each his or her own.

[MJK]

Its kind of crazy that I can have both a 9k account and a 1d account on the same server.

Well, the point jts was getting at is that Tygem's ranking system is a purely descriptive one, while KGS's rating system is a predictive one. Tygem's system is meant to do nothing other than describe what you have done in the past. If you see someone rated 9k, it is obvious how they got there (they won X number of games as an 10k, or lost X number of games as a 8k). It makes no attempt to predict what may happen in the future.

On KGS if you see someone rated 9k, it may be unclear why they are there (did they win games as a 10k? Did they have an opponent who did well after they played as 12ks? Have they even played X number of games at all like the guy from tygem?). The rank signifies what the server is predicting for how they will play in the future (they will have a 33 to 66 percent winrate against other 9ks).

Some people prefer a descriptive system, because they want a rank to reflect achievement (Professional ranks are like this. A professional rank makes no attempt at predicting who is supposed to win a matchup, instead it signifies the achievements of the owner). Others prefer a predictive system because they want a rank that provides a fair match up (that is, it predicts that these two players will play at a similar strength in the future). To each his or her own.

What you say as "purely descriptive", do you mean that the Tygem ranks does not tell the strength of a player? So that you don't know what will happen if a 5kyu and 5dan in Tygem matches up, and it's unable to predict who is more likely to win, because the Tygem system is "purely discriptive"?

Well, in my opinion, perhaps I've misunderstood your words, but I can't agree with you, and a 5dan does win a 5kyu in Tygem.

It is true though, the 18kyu in this server is somehow mysterious, and more likely to win a 5dan than the 5kyu.

[walpurgis]

I've understood that the KGS system takes into account your opponent's performance even after the match you had with him (up to how long I'm not sure). E.g. you're 10k and beat a 10k dude. Then this opponent goes on a win streak and becomes a 5dan. KGS keeps calculating your rating and sees that you beat a player who in reality is 5dan, and your rating will skyrocket as well. When you have lots of games this effect is of course not so dramatic and it can even be hard to go up a rank even if you keep winning.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I remember it.

[SmoothOper]

I've understood that the KGS system takes into account your opponent's performance even after the match you had with him (up to how long I'm not sure). E.g. you're 10k and beat a 10k dude. Then this opponent goes on a win streak and becomes a 5dan. KGS keeps calculating your rating and sees that you beat a player who in reality is 5dan, and your rating will skyrocket as well. When you have lots of games this effect is of course not so dramatic and it can even be hard to go up a rank even if you keep winning.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I remember it.

For stronger players, it just doesn't make sense that you would play a 10k who ranks up to a 5dan within the window of KGS ratings. Maybe from 25k to 10k, but there in lies the rub if as a 10k you play a bunch of handicap games as white, your rank will go up riding on the wins against double digit kyu who improve dramatically, but against even competitors, you lose.

[walpurgis]

I've understood that the KGS system takes into account your opponent's performance even after the match you had with him (up to how long I'm not sure). E.g. you're 10k and beat a 10k dude. Then this opponent goes on a win streak and becomes a 5dan. KGS keeps calculating your rating and sees that you beat a player who in reality is 5dan, and your rating will skyrocket as well. When you have lots of games this effect is of course not so dramatic and it can even be hard to go up a rank even if you keep winning.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I remember it.

For stronger players, it just doesn't make sense that you would play a 10k who ranks up to a 5dan within the window of KGS ratings. Maybe from 25k to 10k, but there in lies the rub if as a 10k you play a bunch of handicap games as white, your rank will go up riding on the wins against double digit kyu who improve dramatically, but against even competitors, you lose.

I'm not sure if you mean that my example was quite extreme (which it is for the sake of demonstration) or the way KGS system works is. In any case, the above was just to show how KGS rating system also retroactively takes into account your past games / your opponents' future performance. Whether it's good or not is up to the player's opinion.

Personally I see KGS as waaaaay more stable in terms of rank accuracy (vs. WBaduk, Tygem) in the kyu range, and my understanding is that it mostly applies to dan ranks as well. The exception being what you pointed out, but I haven't seen that nearly as much a problem as truly random ranks elsewhere.

[SmoothOper]

I've understood that the KGS system takes into account your opponent's performance even after the match you had with him (up to how long I'm not sure). E.g. you're 10k and beat a 10k dude. Then this opponent goes on a win streak and becomes a 5dan. KGS keeps calculating your rating and sees that you beat a player who in reality is 5dan, and your rating will skyrocket as well. When you have lots of games this effect is of course not so dramatic and it can even be hard to go up a rank even if you keep winning.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I remember it.

For stronger players, it just doesn't make sense that you would play a 10k who ranks up to a 5dan within the window of KGS ratings. Maybe from 25k to 10k, but there in lies the rub if as a 10k you play a bunch of handicap games as white, your rank will go up riding on the wins against double digit kyu who improve dramatically, but against even competitors, you lose.

I'm not sure if you mean that my example was quite extreme (which it is for the sake of demonstration) or the way KGS system works is. In any case, the above was just to show how KGS rating system also retroactively takes into account your past games / your opponents' future performance. Whether it's good or not is up to the player's opinion.

Personally I see KGS as waaaaay more stable in terms of rank accuracy (vs. WBaduk, Tygem) in the kyu range, and my understanding is that it mostly applies to dan ranks as well. The exception being what you pointed out, but I haven't seen that nearly as much a problem as truly random ranks elsewhere.

No one cares how accurate the double digit kyu rank is though, it might as well be irrelevant. The problem is sand bagging and the relatively inflated mid kyu and low dan ranks, compared to other servers.

[otenki]

No one cares how accurate the double digit kyu rank is though, it might as well be irrelevant. The problem is sand bagging and the relatively inflated mid kyu and low dan ranks, compared to other servers.

Couldn't the same thing be said about sdk and low dan ? They are all just ranks we have to get passed ...

[walpurgis]

I have never found sandbagging a problem on KGS. And while true that low dan/kyu ranks are stronger compared to Asian servers, they're very consistent within KGS.

[SmoothOper]

No one cares how accurate the double digit kyu rank is though, it might as well be irrelevant. The problem is sand bagging and the relatively inflated mid kyu and low dan ranks, compared to other servers.

Couldn't the same thing be said about sdk and low dan ? They are all just ranks we have to get passed ...

No, not really. Some people will have quite stable sdk and low dan ranks for example AGA ranks.

[BigDango]

I would gander a few things:

1) Style. Your being exposed to many patterns you don't see all the time, yet your opponents do. Playing on multiple servers in general will help your game for just this reason.
2) No disrespect mean but you are probably choking a bit at this point. Once you take note of something like that it's hard to get out of your head.
3) KGS in me experience is the "softest server." I like it for sure, but the ranks tend to be more relaxed, the style, the people, etc.


I would fix this by:
-Playing a lot on that server. It takes the brain at the very least 7 days in a row to "adapt" (form a habit) of dealing w/ the change.
-Concentrate a bit on life and death. The aggressive styles rely more on reading then strategy.