When do you stop being a beginner?

[snorri]

When you lose the Beginner's Mind. But it is not necessarily a good thing.

[DJLLAP]

In my experience, such classification is made to produce a distinction between categories.

In this case, is it needed?

If we limited your activities to those that are necessary, none of us would be participating in an online forum about a board game. The reason for this discussion is not to find a consensus or establish precise definitions, but to share our thoughts and experiences with each other for our mutual enjoyment and edification.

[matthiasa]

I'm KGS 1k/2k and feel I have no clue about the game. I know there is so much more to learn - and I hope it will never change.

[judicata]

In my experience, such classification is made to produce a distinction between categories.

In this case, is it needed?

What do you mean by "in this case"?

For communication purposes, I understand someone wanting to know what people understand "beginner" to mean. So the person knows, for example, whether to call himself a "beginner" or to go to a "beginner's" go class.

I think the answer is pretty obviously "it depends." There are communities in which such terms are generally understood--even if the term isn't absolute, one could describe what it meant in most cases. But that isn't so with the broadly defined and diverse "go community." Do we need a more precise definition? If this is what you meant, I think I agree with you. Sure, it would be "useful" to have a precise, widely adopted definition of "beginner," but far from necessary.

That said, the discussion about general thoughts/feelings and contexts in which the term comes up is perfectly natural.

[Solomon]

When do you stop being a beginner?

When the Nihon Kiin gives you a certificate suggesting otherwise.

[skydyr]

When I was just starting to play go, someone at 20k was strong and knew what they were doing. Now, I am in the mid SDK ranks, and a DDK is definitely a beginner, and in many ways, so am I.

In terms of being useful to students, it really depends on how many distinctions you have and what they are being used for. I could very well see a two part split between beginner and experienced somewhere in the SDK range. I can see Dan/SDK/Beginner, or High Dan/Low Dan/Strong SDK/Weak SDK/DDK/Beginner. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with your definition. I've seen people in the beginner's room on KGS who want to leave at 15k, and others at 5k who still feel it's an appropriate place for them as well.

I think you can make a claim that there are different levels of play that may jump by 10 or 15 ranks in the beginning, going down to one level every one or two ranks for dans, but again, what is the goal in making the division?

[EdLee]

... Beginner's Mind (Sho-shin)

See also Sho-dan .

[walpurgis]

What about those WBaduk 17k players who have 10 000-20 000 games played, are they considered beginners for the rest of their lives even if they keep playing every day? Is time spent and experience not a factor if you don't get stronger? It's not always about rank, and it definitely is not how you feel about it yourself - at least if you ask an external observer's opinion.

[judicata]

What about those WBaduk 17k players who have 10 000-20 000 games played, are they considered beginners for the rest of their lives even if they keep playing every day? Is time spent and experience not a factor if you don't get stronger? It's not always about rank, and it definitely is not how you feel about it yourself - at least if you ask an external observer's opinion.

It depends on who the "external observer" is, and that person's experiences, biases, assumptions, etc. In some contexts a 25k can safely be considered a "beginner," and not in others. I think reasonable minds can agree that someone who just now "learned the rules" and nothing more is a "beginner" (I try to be open minded, but arguments to the contrary will be disregarded as asinine). Beyond that, it just depends.

[walpurgis]

What about those WBaduk 17k players who have 10 000-20 000 games played, are they considered beginners for the rest of their lives even if they keep playing every day? Is time spent and experience not a factor if you don't get stronger? It's not always about rank, and it definitely is not how you feel about it yourself - at least if you ask an external observer's opinion.

It depends on who the "external observer" is, and that person's experiences, biases, assumptions, etc. In some contexts a 25k can safely be considered a "beginner," and not in others. I think reasonable minds can agree that someone who just now "learned the rules" and nothing more is a "beginner" (I try to be open minded, but arguments to the contrary will be disregarded as asinine). Beyond that, it just depends.

I mainly wanted to argue that if you're a strong kyu player, let alone a dan-level player, nobody cares if you *feel* like a beginner - it doesn't matter what you feel like, you're definitely not a beginner by any standard. Hell, at 1 kyu you're already much stronger than the vast majority of people who can play go. (The only exception would be a prodigy who picks up the stones for the first time and immediately plays on an SDK+ level. If such a case exists, even among the top pros of all time, please let me know.)

By external observer I mean pretty much any "outsider", i.e. anyone who doesn't play go any more than your average Joe plays chess. I firmly believe that "Joe" wouldn't classify 1-5k as beginner, no matter how strongly they might claim otherwise

All in all, although there's no clear-cut answer, some objectivity can (and IMO should) be applied here.

[judicata]

All in all, although there's no clear-cut answer, some objectivity can (and IMO should) be applied here.

I don't think we disagree. I'm just noting exceptions. For example, if a 12-14k walked into one of the Korean baduk clubs in Flushing (Queens) NY, they would be a "beginner" in the eyes of everyone who played there. And Guo Juan's lectures "joseki for beginners" is probably perfectly suited for a 12-14k. But, exceptions aside, I agree that, say 14k KGS is not a "beginner" for most purposes in Western go circles (based on my experience...I can't really prove that).

[walpurgis]

I don't think we disagree. I'm just noting exceptions. For example, if a 12-14k walked into one of the Korean baduk clubs in Flushing (Queens) NY, they would be a "beginner" in the eyes of everyone who played there. And Guo Juan's lectures "joseki for beginners" is probably perfectly suited for a 12-14k. But, exceptions aside, I agree that, say 14k KGS is not a "beginner" for most purposes in Western go circles (based on my experience...I can't really prove that).

Ah, I wasn't actually trying to disagree, but to just clarify what I meant (and I also agree with the above). The comment was mostly aimed at other people earlier in the thread ^^

[quantumf]

I was going to suggest "number of games greater than x" might be a useful metric, where x is, say, 50.

Then I remembered a friend of mine who, appallingly, reached 5k after playing less than 20 games. His situation was unusual - he had no internet access, and his only games were weekly games the club. He spent his time studying strategy and problem books. This was over a period of about 4 or 5 months. He then went to college and as far as I know, hasn't been playing Go since.

[DJLLAP]

After some further thought, I think that beginner-hood is relative to your goals. A 10 mile walk seems pretty far, unless it is the first 10 miles of a 3000 mile trip across the country.

In the same way any particular rank or milestone in go may just be the beginning steps on your go journey.

[Bonobo]

After some further thought, I think that beginner-hood is relative to your goals. A 10 mile walk seems pretty far, unless it is the first 10 miles of a 3000 mile trip across the country.

In the same way any particular rank or milestone in go may just be the beginning steps on your go journey.

To take this even further, and, somehow, also turn it back:

When I began this walk I thought it would be 1 km; when I reached 1 km I wanted to go 10 km, “still” feeling like a beginner.

After 8 km I didn’t feel like a beginner anymore—until I reached 10 km, where I really really felt like a beginner again, seeing that there were so many more mountains and valleys to cross that I couldn’t even count them.

So I decided to walk 100 km. I wonder whether I’ll again feel I’ve advanced when I reach 80 km, and whether I’ll again feel like a beginner when I’ve reached 100 km, and whether I’ll get there at all in this life.


To be honest, I’ve only walked around 13 km now

Greetings, Tom



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Why does this remind me of this?

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