What do you think are the top ten josekis that beginners should know?
(Please provide diagrams of or links to the josekis.)
Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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otenki
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Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Taisha... so they know how to avoid it 
On a more serious note, I think they should know at least one 5-4, 5-3, 3-3, and a bunch of 3-4, and 4-4 josekis.
For 5-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pepcndqeqfqdpfnb
For 5-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qepcnd ... qbrcmdnejc
For 3-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qcpdqdpeobmdrfph (old pattern but still worth to study)
4-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqcqi
Maybe also talk about posibility of pincer after the question of being able to go into the corner like: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqg
No need to go into all the variations though.
Maybe also go into one easy pincer: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhqcqdpcodrdrercqe
There you can explain why the hane is bad.
About 3-4, I'm not so sure, there are so many ...
There is this one where I learned a lot from: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qdodoc ... pdpeoendof
Cheers,
Otenki
On a more serious note, I think they should know at least one 5-4, 5-3, 3-3, and a bunch of 3-4, and 4-4 josekis.
For 5-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pepcndqeqfqdpfnb
For 5-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qepcnd ... qbrcmdnejc
For 3-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qcpdqdpeobmdrfph (old pattern but still worth to study)
4-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqcqi
Maybe also talk about posibility of pincer after the question of being able to go into the corner like: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqg
No need to go into all the variations though.
Maybe also go into one easy pincer: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhqcqdpcodrdrercqe
There you can explain why the hane is bad.
About 3-4, I'm not so sure, there are so many ...
There is this one where I learned a lot from: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qdodoc ... pdpeoendof
Cheers,
Otenki
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snorri
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Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
One thing I find interesting is that the BadukTV videos for 5kyu and 3kyu only feature the nirensei vs. nirensei opening. This is a really simplifying assumption, but I don't know if it's common in Korean instruction. I suppose there is some logic to it in the context of club play where one assumes they'll be playing a lot of handicap games.
In that case, the emphasis should be on 4-4 josekis. Another way to restrict repertoire is to:
1) Never play anything but 4-4 in an empty corner.
2) Choose approaches to 3-4, 5-3, and 5-4 that have fewer variations. For example, only the large knight's approach to the 3-4. It is not hard to handle the pincers. For the 5-3, just play the other 5-3. It's a simple way: miai to get the corner and the side: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qeocqclc and for the 5-4, approach from the outside rather than invade: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocqclc and you have to know how to deal with the attachment: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocpcqc
Neither of these suggestions is my idea. I remember 1) from some random 3-4 dan on rec.games.go a long time ago. And 2) comes directly from Michael Redmond's ABCs of Attack and Defense.
But I think it depends on your goal. When limiting to 10, it's not easy. I'd want at least one tenuki joseki, maybe the double knight's approach to the 4-4, just to get the student into the idea that they don't always have to respond.
Ugh. I can't choose just 10. I think I have about 15 here.
(Then 'a' and 'b'). Yeah, I know it's not really joseki, but I presume it comes with advice on when to do choose it.
A good one to teach ladders and nets, and not always taking territory:
Simple 3-4 idea:
Simple 5-3 idea (if white near
, black at :w2 to treat corner and side are miai).
Simple 5-4 idea:
Handle attachment:
3-3, far low approach:
3-3: close low approach:
3-3: close low approach, teach difference between sente and gote with above. (You can also use the one-point jump extension vs. knight's move as in Joaz's example, but I think the idea of finishing a position to get sente vs. accepting open position and taking gote with more territory is a good trade-off to explain early.)
Teaching choice of block of white (part 1):
Teaching choice of block of white (part 2). Finish with 'a':
Teaching first joseki mistake. A fun one to show. The punishment is left as an exercise.
Double approach:
Maybe you can cut out the 3-3 ones. The move is not that popular and you can just tenuki and see if white can develop. If adding, some of the other 3-3 invasion variations are important, such as handling the white double hane.
In that case, the emphasis should be on 4-4 josekis. Another way to restrict repertoire is to:
1) Never play anything but 4-4 in an empty corner.
2) Choose approaches to 3-4, 5-3, and 5-4 that have fewer variations. For example, only the large knight's approach to the 3-4. It is not hard to handle the pincers. For the 5-3, just play the other 5-3. It's a simple way: miai to get the corner and the side: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qeocqclc and for the 5-4, approach from the outside rather than invade: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocqclc and you have to know how to deal with the attachment: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocpcqc
Neither of these suggestions is my idea. I remember 1) from some random 3-4 dan on rec.games.go a long time ago. And 2) comes directly from Michael Redmond's ABCs of Attack and Defense.
But I think it depends on your goal. When limiting to 10, it's not easy. I'd want at least one tenuki joseki, maybe the double knight's approach to the 4-4, just to get the student into the idea that they don't always have to respond.
Ugh. I can't choose just 10. I think I have about 15 here.
(Then 'a' and 'b'
). Yeah, I know it's not really joseki, but I presume it comes with advice on when to do choose it.A good one to teach ladders and nets, and not always taking territory:
Simple 3-4 idea:
Simple 5-3 idea (if white near
, black at :w2 to treat corner and side are miai).Simple 5-4 idea:
Handle attachment:
3-3, far low approach:
3-3: close low approach:
3-3: close low approach, teach difference between sente and gote with above. (You can also use the one-point jump extension vs. knight's move as in Joaz's example, but I think the idea of finishing a position to get sente vs. accepting open position and taking gote with more territory is a good trade-off to explain early.)
Teaching choice of block of white (part 1):
Teaching choice of block of white (part 2). Finish with 'a':
Teaching first joseki mistake. A fun one to show. The punishment is left as an exercise.
Double approach:
Maybe you can cut out the 3-3 ones. The move is not that popular and you can just tenuki and see if white can develop.
If adding, some of the other 3-3 invasion variations are important, such as handling the white double hane.-
snorri
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Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
I also like this one for teaching pushing battles / importance of getting ahead:
And if I could pick one side joseki, maybe this diagonal haengma to develop out and separate. When I was first shown that this prevents a white connection at 'a', I thought go was so beautiful.
And if I could pick one side joseki, maybe this diagonal haengma to develop out and separate. When I was first shown that this prevents a white connection at 'a', I thought go was so beautiful.
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EdLee
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DrStraw
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Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
I am surprised that no one mentioned the 4-4 cap of sansan.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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otenki
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Re:
EdLee wrote:IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" forsnorri wrote:...joseki mistake. The punishment...
-- "variation" may be better.
"The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" --
there are many variations here (some complicated).
Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned.
Cheers,
Otenki
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judicata
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Re: Re:
otenki wrote:EdLee wrote:IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" forsnorri wrote:...joseki mistake. The punishment...
"The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" --
there are many variations here (some complicated).
Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned.
Cheers,
Otenki
I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals. Unless, of course, you're applying a different definition of "mistake" than is commonly used. Put another way, if this isn't a joseki mistake, I'm curious to know what "real" joseki mistakes are that don't result in groups dying. There are two common ways to "punish" that I know of, the most common (in my experience) being black descending at
below. But I like this one:-
tchan001
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Re: Re:
otenki wrote:EdLee wrote:IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" forsnorri wrote:...joseki mistake. The punishment...
"The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" --
there are many variations here (some complicated).
Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned.
Cheers,
Otenki
Look at this old thread
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6155
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
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EdLee
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I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.
Takao spent about half a page on the hane. Excerpts:
3 of which played by Cho Chikun 9p, including one very early in the opening (on
).(Compared to 1,890 games with the joseki extend.)
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judicata
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Re:
EdLee wrote:I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.
I don't doubt you at all. I suspect those pros have a different understanding of the term "mistake." Though it is possible that they have a different judgment about the position (which would be interesting). Of course, almost any normally "bad" move can be a good move in the right situation (as can almost any normally "good" move be a "bad" move in the wrong position). Where to draw the line at "mistake" isn't clear cut, but I question whether the term remains useful if it excludes moves like this. (You could argue that the word "mistake" is never useful, but I don't think that gives people enough credit--rather, players should realize that "mistake" implies "generally" and that, most likely, there are exceptions.)
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snorri
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Re: Re:
judicata wrote:EdLee wrote:I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.
I don't doubt you at all. I suspect those pros have a different understanding of the term "mistake." Though it is possible that they have a different judgment about the position (which would be interesting). Of course, almost any normally "bad" move can be a good move in the right situation (as can almost any normally "good" move be a "bad" move in the wrong position). Where to draw the line at "mistake" isn't clear cut, but I question whether the term remains useful if it excludes moves like this. (You could argue that the word "mistake" is never useful, but I don't think that gives people enough credit--rather, players should realize that "mistake" implies "generally" and that, most likely, there are exceptions.)
Okay, that example was more deeply controversial than I would have expected, so maybe shouldn't be considered in a short list. Any other favorites for common mistakes? I'm not sure I remember the normal ways of flubbing the 3-3 invasion under 4-4, but I think there are some.