Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

logan · Post by **logan** » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:57 pm

Suppose you had a beginner student and said, "Here are two games that I'd like you to go over this month." It is your student's first foray into professional games and you wish to make sure that the games will: present clear ideas and not appear overly complicated.

Q1: Selecting from only classical games (those games before 1930), which two games would those be?

Q2: Supposing study continues into further months, are there any other classical games that you'd provide him to continue with?

otenki · Post by **otenki** » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:18 pm

I don't know two games but I know one which truly amazed me.

Huang Longshi vs Jiang Tianyuan (Around 1680)

I'm not sure ddk's will really understand the game very much but with a lot of comments you can show the beauty of this game I think. The game starts with a cross fuseki as all games of these times but white still tries to build influence with this fuseki. In itself this may not be that amazing as it is only a strategy or a plan but the way white acomplishes this is wonderfull :-)

Anyway here it is:

Cheers,
Otenki

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:12 am

Depending on what you mean by beginner, I am not sure I would give them any games at all. They need to see a completed game or two so see how it all works and looks, maybe one which is counted out and one which is resigned. But I don't think it important as to which particular games they are. I don't see a lot of benefit from studying whole games until at least SDK.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:21 am

DrStraw wrote:I don't see a lot of benefit from studying whole games until at least SDK.

I have to disagree. When I started, heavily influenced by HnG, I decided to look over, try to understand, and even memorize a bunch of Shusaku's games.

Now, while I didn't hardly understand the reasoning, I did internalize the idea of good shape, along with some stock techniques, and some sense for the flow of a game. I mysteriously made it to SDK in a matter of maybe two months. :cool:

Much of Go is processing data, finding patterns, and of course reading. I played as much as I could and read into each position as far as I could, and made good shape. I took gote a lot, but I often ended up with a superior result nevertheless, and had learned how to keep my stones connected as well as rend my opponents' apart.

Classical Japanese games are relatively straightforward, I find. Even though the student will not 'understand' the game, he will play better Go if he both memorizes a few games and thinks for himself.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:51 am

Phoenix wrote:
DrStraw wrote:I don't see a lot of benefit from studying whole games until at least SDK.

I have to disagree. When I started, heavily influenced by HnG, I decided to look over, try to understand, and even memorize a bunch of Shusaku's games.

Now, while I didn't hardly understand the reasoning, I did internalize the idea of good shape, along with some stock techniques, and some sense for the flow of a game. I mysteriously made it to SDK in a matter of maybe two months.

Much of Go is processing data, finding patterns, and of course reading. I played as much as I could and read into each position as far as I could, and made good shape. I took gote a lot, but I often ended up with a superior result nevertheless, and had learned how to keep my stones connected as well as rend my opponents' apart.

Classical Japanese games are relatively straightforward, I find. Even though the student will not 'understand' the game, he will play better Go if he both memorizes a few games and thinks for himself.

You maybe the exception, but more likely you have an affinity for the game and just took to it. You cannot say if you would have made it to SDK quicker by just studying shape and L&D.

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:09 am

I think if you wanted someone to just have an "oh my gosh, cool!" reaction, you might show them the classical Chinese game with the double-ladder breaker.

A pretty well-known game that is accessible to beginners, at least for the first hundred moves, is the Killing Game. It has a straightforward opening with an easy exchange of territory for influence, then an invasion that turns into a tsumego, then an attempt to parlay the dead invasion into outside influence and/or a ko. It's a nice narrative and there isn't any ko in the early part of the game. (In classical and in modern go games, the middle-game ko fight tends to be the pons asinorum.)

Honestly I would imagine that if you have to show pro games to beginners you want them to be 9x9 games. I only know of post-1930 9x9 games, but you can find some here: http://gobase.org/9x9/

snorri · Post by **snorri** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:36 am

Rather than choose a game on technical merits, I might choose one with a nice story behind it, such as the Blood Vomiting Game. I think having a story helps bring the game to life, and helps anchor go in culture for the student. I sometimes wonder if you could tell that story along with the go game even to a non-go player and still have it be memorable.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that particular game's story is one to choose to get people to keep playing go. So people like happier resolutions.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:07 pm

snorri wrote:Rather than choose a game on technical merits, I might choose one with a nice story behind it, such as the Blood Vomiting Game. I think having a story helps bring the game to life, and helps anchor go in culture for the student. I sometimes wonder if you could tell that story along with the go game even to a non-go player and still have it be memorable.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that particular game's story is one to choose to get people to keep playing go. So people like happier resolutions.

How about the Hiroshima game? That has a happy ending - they both survived.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:23 pm

How about the Hiroshima game? That has a happy ending - they both survived.

Odd definition of happiness. If I may quote my own account of the match:

Remarkably, they spent an hour clearing up the mess, had an early lunch and then began to play again a little after noon. Apart from a later suggestion from Iwamoto that perhaps he played a poor move (Black 119) because of the turbulent emotions they were going through, there was little on the board to indicate any impact of the outside events. They played to a finish, and Hashimoto won. There are conflicting memories about when the game ended – about 3 or about 5. But the next memory is clear. It was of Itsukaichi filling up with hideously wounded children and of parents delirious with worry.

Segoe had asked the players to stay at his place and so they set out with him. As they walked down the street, they encountered people returning from Hiroshima itself. They were mostly schoolchildren returning from forced demolition work - this was the forced evacuation of residents in the city centre and then the demolition of their homes and offices to form firebreaks.

“They were so pitiable we could not look at them,” said Hashimoto. “They were burnt black. We were thinking something stupendous must have happened when suddenly Segoe's son and nephew appeared among them.”

It was Segoe's third son who had been caught up in the blast and he returned with a face that no-one in Itsukaichi could recognise. Segoe's younger brother's son, also a middle school student, also returned but was hardly breathing. He died during the night. There was a constant pitiable sound of numberless people asking for water, water: Mizu wo kure, mizu wo kure. "Even now I can hear these voices inside my ears," said Hashimoto. “Truly it was hell. I even now, whenever this scene comes to my mind, feel a shiver down my spine.”

.....

Segoe’s son did die, after a couple of days. He was not the only casualty of course. 100,000 people died. The helpers who had declined the invitation to stay overnight perished. [The sponsor] Fujii died. His main house was right in front of what is now the Hiroshima memorial pagoda. His secondary house and office were also very close to the hypocentre of the bomb. Apart from him, his third son Haruo and wife Tsuyako died in the main house, according to research by Oniwa Nobuyuki.

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:59 pm

logan wrote:Suppose you had a beginner student and said, "Here are two games that I'd like you to go over this month." It is your student's first foray into professional games and you wish to make sure that the games will present clear ideas and not appear overly complicated.
Q1: Selecting from only classical games (those games before 1930), which two games would those be?

Q2: Supposing study continues into further months, are there any other classical games that you'd provide him to continue with?

[my bold face] I think you won't find many games to meet your criteria. First, what do you mean by overly complicated? Most pro level games introduce complications fairly early, even as early as the third or fourth move when one player might play tenuki or play an approachmove rather than occupy an empty corner (Shusaku's 1,3,5 opening). In classical Japanese go complicated joseki like the taisha were often played, too complicated for sure.

But there is already a book for kyu level players, Appreciating Famous Games by Ohira, translated by John Fairbairn, but it's out of print. However, I wouldn't expect beginners to appreciate these games.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:03 am

I suspect that beginners will get the most out of commented games, with comments at their level.

Here is an example of what I mean. The *** comments were made for a general audience. I added the * comments for beginners.

oren · Post by **oren** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:51 am

logan wrote:Q1: Selecting from only classical games (those games before 1930), which two games would those be?

What is the reason for limiting before 1930?

If not for that, I would recommend the 1971 Honinbo Tournament book.

araluen7 · Post by **araluen7** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:44 pm

Hey Bill Spight, by chance who was the winner of that game? I'm still trying to get the hang of the whole scoring at the end system, and to me it looks like White won. Is there any place where I can find more games like that that have commentary on select turns explaining what some important moves do? Also, I haven't really found a solid answer on how to score games at the end, aside from counting territory and captured/dead stones, but sometimes it's a little difficult to me to figure out which color owns what territory. Do you guys have a guide on site, or a link that explains this a bit more in depth?

jts · Post by **jts** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:40 pm

araluen7 wrote:Hey Bill Spight, by chance who was the winner of that game? I'm still trying to get the hang of the whole scoring at the end system, and to me it looks like White won. Is there any place where I can find more games like that that have commentary on select turns explaining what some important moves do? Also, I haven't really found a solid answer on how to score games at the end, aside from counting territory and captured/dead stones, but sometimes it's a little difficult to me to figure out which color owns what territory. Do you guys have a guide on site, or a link that explains this a bit more in depth?

The file says B+1. My rough count is W+2, but I'm not accurate within a few points.

Could you state what you take the rule on territory and dead stones to be? It's not that hard, but it will be easier to clarify if we know where you're starting from.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:29 pm

araluen7 wrote:Also, I haven't really found a solid answer on how to score games at the end, aside from counting territory and captured/dead stones, but sometimes it's a little difficult to me to figure out which color owns what territory. Do you guys have a guide on site, or a link that explains this a bit more in depth?

Here's a nice example:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ExampleGame

I remember having the same trouble trying to count the score myself from professional game records and comparing to their result (if they even mentioned a result)

Its a good exercise to work out for yourself, but if you post your attempts, we can help steer you in the right direction.

Two things that were most difficult for me initially (and still is sometimes), was filling in the dame (most professional game records leave out the dame filling), and determining the life and death status of some groups.

Here's the end position of the game. try and mark what you think are the dame and the dead stones, then you'll be able to see the territory borders more clearly in order to count the score

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . X . X . . . O X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X O . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O X O X X O O X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X O X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O X O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . X X X O . X O O O O O X . X O O X . | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O @ X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . X . O X O O . O X O X O . O . | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X . O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O . O X O X . O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X O O X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X O . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O . X . . X O O | $$ | . O O X . O . O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

white has captured 19 black prisoners
black has captured 17 white prisoners

Life In 19x19

Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

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