Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

1/7,000,000,000 · Post by **1/7,000,000,000** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:45 am

Phoenix wrote:
DrStraw wrote:I don't see a lot of benefit from studying whole games until at least SDK.

I have to disagree. When I started, heavily influenced by HnG, I decided to look over, try to understand, and even memorize a bunch of Shusaku's games.

Now, while I didn't hardly understand the reasoning, I did internalize the idea of good shape, along with some stock techniques, and some sense for the flow of a game. I mysteriously made it to SDK in a matter of maybe two months.

I reached 8k in a month with almost not studying from a book so...

araluen7 · Post by **araluen7** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:55 am

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, so I apologize to the OP about that! From what I understand about it, Territory is dictated by whomever has the most influence in that given area, so in the game I was asking about it is very clear to me that Black controls the bottom right corner without a doubt. And deadstones are stones placed in an area that have no effect on the control of the territory or that with one or a few moves are actually captured. Yeah xed that's what I've been trying to do, find games and try to see who won myself just to get some extra practice in. Here's what I consider the dead stones to be in that game, but I do have a hard time finding out the dame too. Like I know that white controls a good part of the leftmost side of the board, but I don't know about the topleft corner? It seems like its divided with both black and white control with black , but anyway here's what I think the board will look like after removing all of the dead stones

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . X . X . . . . X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X . . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X . X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O X O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . X X X O . X O O O O O X . X O O X . | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O . O X O X O . O . | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X . O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O . O X O X . O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X . . X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O . X . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . O . O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

and when I counted I got White- 78 Black- 80

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:16 am

araluen7 wrote:Hey Bill Spight, by chance who was the winner of that game?

Black won, but it was White's masterpiece. :mrgreen:

I'm still trying to get the hang of the whole scoring at the end system, and to me it looks like White won. Is there any place where I can find more games like that that have commentary on select turns explaining what some important moves do? Also, I haven't really found a solid answer on how to score games at the end, aside from counting territory and captured/dead stones, but sometimes it's a little difficult to me to figure out which color owns what territory. Do you guys have a guide on site, or a link that explains this a bit more in depth?

That is something that comes with experience, and fairly quickly. Although even SDK players sometimes miss winning plays at the very end, where their opponent has a weakness to exploit.

Meanwhile, you would do well to play everything out until it is obvious to you. You can do that with no penalty for capturing dead stones after all the dame have been played by playing by area scoring rules (Chinese or AGA rules, for instance).

Bonne chance!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:40 am

araluen7 wrote:From what I understand about it, Territory is dictated by whomever has the most influence in that given area,

No.

First, the game is not finished in the SGF at :white:

287 -- there are a few more necessary moves: notice :wt:

,

's, and

.
Also, fill in all the 0.5-point kos ( :bc:

and

), and all the dames (greyed out):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | ? X B X . Y . P X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X P . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O Z O X X P P X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . Q O O X P X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O Z O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . Z Z Z O ? X O O O O O X . X O O X # | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . Z . O X O O . O X O X O . O W | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X ? O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O W | $$ | . . . . Z O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O ? O X O X # O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X P P X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X P . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X # X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O ? X . . X P P | $$ | . O O X # O W O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In particular, :bt:

at the top is important. Otherwise, after the two :ws:

dames are filled,
then :w1:

makes the top seki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | @ X X X . 1 . O X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X O . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O . O X X O O X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . O O O X O X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O . O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . . . . O @ X O O O O O X . X O O X X | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O . O X O X O . O O | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X . O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O . O X O X X O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X . . X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X X X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O . X . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X O O O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:42 am

araluen7 wrote: Here's what I consider the dead stones to be in that game, but I do have a hard time finding out the dame too. Like I know that white controls a good part of the leftmost side of the board, but I don't know about the topleft corner? It seems like its divided with both black and white control with black , but anyway here's what I think the board will look like after removing all of the dead stones

Yeah, mostly correct. The top left black stones are dead too. (you should play it out to figure out why)
edit: (I could be wrong, Ed is stronger than me, but I don't think the white stone in Ed's diagram in the upper left is needed)
edit again: every time I look at Ed's post above, its changed again. so my diagrams here aren't quite right

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . X . X . . . P X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X P . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O Z O X X P P X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X P X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O Z O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . Z Z Z O . X O O O O O X . X O O X . | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . Z . O X O O . O X O X O . O . | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X . O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . Z O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O . O X O X . O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X P P X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X P . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O . X . . X P P | $$ | . O O X . O . O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The dame are the "points" in-between the borders that won't change the score for either player (so it mostly doesn't matter in what order they are played -- you should play these out yourself to see why also).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | a X a X . . . P X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X P . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O Z O X X P P X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X P X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O Z O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . Z Z Z O e X O O O O O X . X O O X b | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . Z . O X O O . O X O X O . O b | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X f O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O c | $$ | . . . . Z O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O g O X O X c O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X P P X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X P . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O h X . . X P P | $$ | . O O X d O d O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Once all the borders are complete and the dead stones removed, it becomes easier to count the score.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | W X B X . . . . X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X . . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X . X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O . O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . . . . O B X O O O O O X . X O O X B | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O . O X O X O . O W | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X W O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O W | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O B O X O X B O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X . . X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O W X . . X . . | $$ | . O O X B O W O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

You just count the empty points surrounded by one color, minus prisoners and dead stones of that color
Can you see the borders now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | O X X X C C C C X X X X C X O O X C C | $$ | O O X C X X C C X O O X X X O X X C C | $$ | O S O X X C C X X X O X O O O O X C C | $$ | S S O O X C X X O O O O O X X X C C C | $$ | S O O S O X X O O S S O O X C X X C X | $$ | S S S S O X X O O O O O X C X O O X X | $$ | S S O O O O O X O S O O X X X O O X O | $$ | S S S S S S O X O O S O X O X O S O O | $$ | S S S O S O X X X O O X O O O O O S O | $$ | S S S S S O O X C X X X X O O O O O O | $$ | S S S S S O O X C X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | S S S O O X O O X X O O X O X O X X O | $$ | S S O S O X O X C X O O X X X X C X O | $$ | S S O O X X X C C X O X C X C C C C X | $$ | S S O X C C X X X C X C X C C X X X C | $$ | S O X X C X X O O X X X C X X C X C X | $$ | S O X X X O O S O O O O X X C C C X C | $$ | O S O X X X O S O S S O O X C C X C C | $$ | S O O X X O O O S O O X X X C X C C C | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

56 squares for white, minus (17 + 10) = 29
56 circles for black, minus (19 + 7) = 30

So B wins by 1

Hope this helps. Have fun practicing.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:13 pm

xed_over wrote:but I don't think the white stone in Ed's diagram in the upper left is needed

Thanks, you're correct W does not need to add a move at B13,
but eventually when A19 is filled, W will be in atari,
so W still needs to remove the B17 :black:

with

@B16.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:24 pm

xed_over wrote:
$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | W X B X . . . . X X X X . X O O X . . |
$$ | O O X . X X . . X O O X X X O X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . X X X O X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O O O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . O O . O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O B X O O O O O X . X O O X B |
$$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . O X O X O . O W |
$$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X W O O O O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O W |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . X X O O O X O X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O B O X O X B O |
$$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . X O X . X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . X X X . X . X . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X |
$$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . |
$$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O W X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X B O W O . O O X X X . X . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | W X B X . . . . X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X . . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X . X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O . O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . . . . O B X O O O O O X . X O O X B | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O . O X O X O . O W | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X W O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O W | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O B O X O X B O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X . . X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X . X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O W X . . X . . | $$ | . O O X B O W O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Three necessary moves are missing from the above -- two :bt:

's and one :wt:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | O X X X . Y . . X X X X . X O O X . . | $$ | O O X . X X . . X O O X X X O X X . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X X X O X O O O O X . . | $$ | . Q O O X . X X O O O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . O O . O X X O O . . O O X . X X . X | $$ | . . . . O X X O O O O O X . X O O X X | $$ | . . O O O O O X O . O O X X X O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O . O X O X O . O O | $$ | . . . O . O X X X O O X O O O O O . O | $$ | . . . , . O O X . X X X X O O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X X O O O X O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X X O O X O X O X X O | $$ | . . O . O X O X . X O O X X X X . X O | $$ | . . O O X X X . . X O X . X . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . X X X . X . X . . X X X . | $$ | . O X X Y X X O O X X X . X X , X . X | $$ | . O X X X O O . O O O O X X . . . X . | $$ | O . O X X X O . O . . O O X . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X O O O . O O X X X . X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:27 pm

EdLee wrote:
xed_over wrote:but I don't think the white stone in Ed's diagram in the upper left is needed
Thanks, you're correct W does not need to add a move at B13,
but eventually when A19 is filled, W will be in atari,
so W still needs to remove the B17 with @B16.

Thanks Ed. Yeah, I think you edited after my edit, and then edited again.
I totally missed E4. The upper left, I'm still trying to understand in my own head (maybe later when I'm not at work)

Bantari · Post by **Bantari** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:43 am

To get back to the original topic...

I would suggest to give the beginner games with clear strategy and not too many obvious complexities. For example - there are some cool Takemiya games from mid-80s, where he played Black. You can follow these games (even if you don't fully understand them) with relative ease, and appreciate what is going on. It might also bee cool for the moyo-factor alone. Games like these can motivate.

Having said the above, I question the wisdom of giving pro games to beginners to study. Like, what will they do, what would be the 'study' process? Play them over and over? Memorize them? Try to understand the moves? Try to soak it up by osmosis? Or what?

And a related question:
What do we understand by 'beginner' in this context? Somebody who was just walked into a coffee-shop and was showed the rules? Somebody who has been playing for 20 years but is still 16k? Somebody who got to be 1d a month after learning the game? Or what? Age might also be of importance here...

Sorry to make it so complex, but I really think the original question is very badly stated. In some cases, it might be pointless, or even damaging or off-putting, to give beginners pro games to 'study'. In other cases, it might be a great idea, but which games to give - this might depend on particular circumstances.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:30 am

What got me interested in go was this game, in Edward Lasker's book.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:08 pm

Bill Spight wrote:What got me interested in go was this game, in Edward Lasker's book.

aw, come on. you've got to be more forthcoming than that

what specifically was it about this game that got you interested?

Life In 19x19

Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

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Re: Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

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Re: Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

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Re: Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

Re: Classical Games to Give to Beginners?

Re: Classical Games to Give to Beginners?