Thinking of learning Chinese (or Japanese)

[illluck]

I would like to stress that learning Chinese will likely be much more difficult than learning Japanese, which should definitely considred in your cost/benefit analysis. Depending on the amount of time you will be able to devote, it may be more fruitful to study Japanese.

That being said, as a native Chinese speaker, I am pleased about your decision. It is for sure a language worth learning - if not for the applicability in your life, then for the myriad pieces of poetry, literature, and other pieces of writing that defy faithful translation.

Some personal thoughts:

Pinyin is likely crucial: I personally did not really use it (I was an avid reader and so knew most of characters before learning them in class). However, being able to associate characters with sounds will greatly facilitate your progress (not to mention it is much more efficient as it also improves your listening and speaking abilities). Since you will likely not have the chance to be immersed in a Chinese-speaking environment, I suspect pinyin is your best way to achieve the association.

Watch a lot of TV/movies (with subtitles and translations): Again, this will help with linking characters to sounds. Furthermore, it will help you develop a feel for grammar. There might be a danger in relying too much on translation. One idea might be to watch movies that you watched originally in English and dubbed in Chinese with Chinese subtitles after you develop a basic proficiency.

Read what interests you: Reading is crucial as well (both to develop feeling for grammar and to expand your vocabulary). Unfortunately, reading is a very painful process at the beginning. This is further excerbated by the fact that at the beginning what you could try to read would likely be boring. In fact, I suspect that one of the key reasons why children learn languages faster is that even introductory text is exciting for them. I don't know if there is a way around it - you may have to just work at it until you achieve basic proficiency. One fortunate thing is that introductory text may provide you with interesting facts about China, which may make it a bit less painful. After basic proficiency (perhaps grade 1-2 vocalbulary) is achieved, though, it would definitely be very helpful if you can find genres of literature that interests you.

Tones are not super important for communication, but may be very useful for learning: People will still be able to understand you even if you have not mastered tones. However, the association process will likely be much harder if you can't at least mentally sort out the tones. This means that your actual pronunciation is not as important as being able to mentally keep track of the tones. Furthermore, Chinese poetry loses a lot of their beauty if you aren't proficient with tones.

[billywoods]

There seem to be a lot of people talking about Chinese here. I learn Japanese. Here are some of my general thoughts on a few of the things that have been mentioned in this thread, from my own perspective. (I normally wouldn't be arrogant enough to put them in ranty FAQ format - forgive me for that - but tonight I happen to be a little tipsy, and I also happen to get asked this stuff a lot. Also some people disagree with me sometimes. Oh well. They're all wrong. )

1. I want to learn Chinese or Japanese or something!
Great! But decide which. China and Japan are very different countries. Chinese and Japanese are completely unrelated languages. "I want to learn a foreign language" is a fantastic goal, but you'll need more than that to motivate you.

2. Wait, why do I need motivating? Aren't they just inherently really cool?
Yeah, they are. But, well. Anecdotally, most Japanese learners I encounter seem to come to Japanese through anime. They fall in love instantly, and think kanji are awesome, and learning Japanese would be great for their CV, and so on; then most give up within a year. Why? Because Japanese is not all kawaii (and nor is it all ninjas, shamisen, matcha or ataris). You will have slumps, feel like you haven't progressed for weeks, and want to throw up at the thought of drilling yet another kanji only to forget it again. You need something that continually reminds you why you love it, even during the times when you feel like you hate it. It is many years of hard work.

3. How many years, of how much hard work?
How good do you want to get, and how many hours do you put in per week? If you want my honest opinion: if 2 hours or less, give up immediately*. If 5-10 hours, you'll see measurable progress, and it'll be a year or two before you can have a half-decent conversation about something not too complicated. If 20 hours, maybe you'll be near-fluent within 5 years. Really, progress is measured in hours studied, not weeks/months/years passed since you began. It also depends on who you are, how experienced you are, and whether you speak to lots of Japanese people or not + live in Japan or don't.

*People seem to dislike it when I say this, but I've genuinely never met anyone who's learnt a language to any reasonable degree of competence by attending a class once a week. Or, to put it another way, how many very good guitarists practised for two hours a week for a few years? I'm willing to meet counterexamples, though.

Don't get me wrong. Learning Japanese is one of the most rewarding things I do, and I love it. But most people I see who take it up fail because they approach it wrongly.

I don't know anything about Chinese. It may be more annoying in a few respects (tones and the lack of a phonetic script actually used by Chinese people, mainly), but I'm sure it'll be qualitatively much the same.

If you want more specific advice (about Japanese), let me know, but please also be more specific about your goals. (By the way, I hate Rosetta Stone. It's better than nothing, though.)

[jolson88]

Thanks for the opinion on Rosetta Stone Billy . Any opinions at this point are _very_ welcomed .

An interesting link I came across tonight that I thought I would share back on this thread... A lady by the name of Shao Lan started "Chineasy" which aims to make it easier for Westerners to understand the Chinese language. Here's her TED talk on the subject:

And her accompanying website: http://chineasy.org/

Don't know how factual it is, but some interesting numbers from the video:
- A chinese scholar knows about 20,000 characters
- Understanding 1,000 characters will give you a basic sense of literacy
- The top 200 characters (most frequently used) will allow you to comprehend 40% of basic literature

As an audio guy/musician, the tonal aspect of spoken Chinese intrigues me quite a bit. As far as incorporating it more into my life, I've thought about using music or reading (novels). There's of course Weiqi as well (would love to be able to read the Chinese Weiqi Association website "natively"). I'm also a tech guy (working at a small company called "Microsoft" on a small product called "Windows" for a living), so there are very interesting things around programming dealing with an English-type of language vs. a pictographic language like Chinese. It would be doubly awesome to be able to "selfhost" (using early internal builds of Windows) in Chinese .

I'm afraid I don't know much about Chinese culture to know what are some fun areas to get into. As billy mentions, Anime and Manga for Japanese is an obvious one. But what for China? Would love any folks more familiar with Chinese culture to throw _any_ ideas out there .

[walleye]

Considering I've never learned a second spoken language ever, it seems fairly daunting to know where to begin.

If you are serious about learning Chinese, a good first step would be to look at the language schools in your area. Get ready to invest a lot of money and time in it. After you enroll, start thinking about making some plans to move to China sometime down the road, say, for a year or so. Sadly, it is unlikely you will make the progress you're dreaming about on your own.

[billywoods]

Just a quick thought on the Chinese character issue, from a Japanese-learner perspective. (The Japanese and Chinese writing systems overlap a lot - it's about their only common feature!)

TED talk

Characters can be broken up into simpler parts, but she is obviously choosing the simplest of the simplest in this talk. How do you represent "after"? Turns out it's made up of the pieces "going" + "thread" + "winter". You can make a mnemonic out of this if you like, and there are systems that employ this technique effectively (see Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji (Japanese) / Hanzi (Chinese)" if you like this sort of thing), but 90%ish of characters will be more abstract and weird than she makes out.

- The top 200 characters (most frequently used) will allow you to comprehend 40% of basic literature

Maybe, but maybe not a useful 40%. Here is a quote from a famous book, with words that I have (very subjectively) judged to be in the least commonly used 60% of English omitted.

Among other **** buildings in a **** town, which for many reasons it will be **** to **** from ****, and to which I will **** no **** name, there is one **** common to most towns, great or small - to ****, a **** and in this **** was ****, on a day and date which I need not trouble myself to repeat, **** as it can be of no possible **** to the ****, in this **** of the **** at all ****, the **** of **** whose name is **** to the head of this ****.

Among other public buildings in a certain town, which for many reasons it will be prudent to refrain from mentioning, and to which I will assign no fictitious name, there is one anciently common to most towns, great or small - to wit, a workhouse and in this workhouse was born, on a day and date which I need not trouble myself to repeat, inasmuch as it can be of no possible consequence to the reader, in this stage of the business at all events, the item of mortality whose name is prefixed to the head of this chapter.

Come to think of it, I blanked out something more like 20% than 60%. But even this gives you a good idea of what's going on. The '40%' are very important structural words, but somehow almost all of the content is in the '60%'. I suppose this is grumbly nonsense, because you shouldn't really be reading the Chinese Oliver Twist as a beginner anyway, but still, it might give you a clearer idea of what's meant.

[billywoods]

Sadly, it is unlikely you will make the progress you're dreaming about on your own.

I teach myself Japanese with decent success (though of course Chinese has its own unique problems, and I probably have to put in twice as much time as I would if I attended classes or lived in Japan).

[SoDesuNe]

Seriously, if you're white and in China and are practically tone-deaf practically the only thing anyone wants to do is teach you tongue twisters. And I've never seen anyone write down the hanzi to explain them.

Given that Heisig's book (if I'm thinking of the right one) is a word-for-word reproduction of "Remembering the Kanji", the claim that it is uniquely suited to the needs of Chinese learners shows noteworthy chutzpah. I will also remind you that the characters are based on the language, rather than vice versa. Can you imagine if you needed to pass someone a written record to explain yourself in day-to-day conversation?

(And no, I could never get the forty-four stone lions correct. I had notable successes with another one, though - I can't remember if it was about a bottle hitting a pan or a pan hitting a bottle.)

Maybe we have a misunderstanding here.
I'm not talking about going to China and throw yourself into conversations. I'm talking about what I believe is a good way to start Chinese in your own home, miles and miles away from China.
Here, there are no chinese-speaking people. Thus speaking Chinese is useless for me, it does not add anything to my understanding - for the moment. But I got chinese books and the internet with a lot of written chinese material and since chinese uses pictograms it is completely irrelevant how they sound - for the time being.
The irrelevance shows even more when you consider that Japan has the same tradtional characters as China but just put different sounds to it - so much for "characters are based on the language".

Maybe we can agree to disagree and I'm far away from saying I'm right in any way. I just believe the reading first approach is sensible.

[daal]

Sadly, it is unlikely you will make the progress you're dreaming about on your own.

Unlikely, perhaps, but certainly not impossible. It really depends on how you learn best. I see it as a matter of motivation and discipline. Like Billywoods, I've had a fair amount of success learning a language on my own. There is quite a lot of material available for self-learners, and I've found it to be an enjoyable and valuable part of the learning process to actively decide what I want to focus on and when. Not having a teacher has made me more inclined to get in contact with native speakers to help me with things I'm not sure about.

3. How many years, of how much hard work?
How good do you want to get, and how many hours do you put in per week? If you want my honest opinion: if 2 hours or less, give up immediately*. If 5-10 hours, you'll see measurable progress, and it'll be a year or two before you can have a half-decent conversation about something not too complicated. If 20 hours, maybe you'll be near-fluent within 5 years. Really, progress is measured in hours studied, not weeks/months/years passed since you began. It also depends on who you are, how experienced you are, and whether you speak to lots of Japanese people or not + live in Japan or don't.

*People seem to dislike it when I say this, but I've genuinely never met anyone who's learnt a language to any reasonable degree of competence by attending a class once a week. Or, to put it another way, how many very good guitarists practised for two hours a week for a few years? I'm willing to meet counterexamples, though.

Although I'd lower all the numbers a bit, I basically agree entirely.

Here, there are no chinese-speaking people.

You really don't need very many people to practice speaking. Actually, one is enough. I can't imagine you live somewhere without a nearby Chinese restaurant. I do understand your reasoning for preferring learning to read over learning to speak, but I see it as a personal choice and not necessarily the best way for everybody.

[SoDesuNe]

I do understand your reasoning for preferring learning to read over learning to speak, but I see it as a personal choice and not necessarily the best way for everybody.

No arguing here ; )

[illluck]

Seriously, if you're white and in China and are practically tone-deaf practically the only thing anyone wants to do is teach you tongue twisters. And I've never seen anyone write down the hanzi to explain them.

Given that Heisig's book (if I'm thinking of the right one) is a word-for-word reproduction of "Remembering the Kanji", the claim that it is uniquely suited to the needs of Chinese learners shows noteworthy chutzpah. I will also remind you that the characters are based on the language, rather than vice versa. Can you imagine if you needed to pass someone a written record to explain yourself in day-to-day conversation?

(And no, I could never get the forty-four stone lions correct. I had notable successes with another one, though - I can't remember if it was about a bottle hitting a pan or a pan hitting a bottle.)

Maybe we have a misunderstanding here.
I'm not talking about going to China and throw yourself into conversations. I'm talking about what I believe is a good way to start Chinese in your own home, miles and miles away from China.
Here, there are no chinese-speaking people. Thus speaking Chinese is useless for me, it does not add anything to my understanding - for the moment. But I got chinese books and the internet with a lot of written chinese material and since chinese uses pictograms it is completely irrelevant how they sound - for the time being.
The irrelevance shows even more when you consider that Japan has the same tradtional characters as China but just put different sounds to it - so much for "characters are based on the language".

Maybe we can agree to disagree and I'm far away from saying I'm right in any way. I just believe the reading first approach is sensible.

Associating sounds with characters is likely of paramount importance in learning. Refer to my previous reply in this thread for additional details

[OtakuViking]

www.ajatt.com

[musai]

On a related subject. I started to learn Japanese now, and I would like to (try to) read some go related material online. Can anybody give an advice on some good online resources, which are updated regularly?
(didn't mean to hijack the thread, just though it is closely related)

[EdLee]

I would like to (try to) read some go related material online.

Hi musai, how about the homepages of the

Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in ?

The newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun ( 読売新聞 ) has Go news:

Kisei -- Yamashita v. Iyama -- it's under National > Culture ( ホーム > 社会 > 文化 ), and not under Sports　( スポーツ ).

[oren]

Ed mentioned the Nihon Kiin and Kansai Kiin which are good.

Nihon Kiin has weekly newspapers and monthly magazines available for purchase online now.

Newspaper articles are also good.

http://www.asahi.com/igo/
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/life/newslist/igo-igo-n1.htm

The Nihon Kiin also has links to a lot of blogs.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/portal/official_b ... l_blog_igo

[musai]

Thanks a lot, I will start deciphering them. Kanji by kanji.