I Want To Learn More About the Opening...

[Bill Spight]

Honinbo Dosaku made good use of the 5-3. As White in this game he played the 5-3 in all four corners, to form his trademark Swastika 5-3. Enjoy!



Note how he made Black over-concentrated on the top side, something his contemporaries did not understand.

[ez4u]

Honinbo Dosaku made good use of the 5-3. As White in this game he played the 5-3 in all four corners, to form his trademark Swastika 5-3. Enjoy!

...

Note how he made Black over-concentrated on the top side, something his contemporaries did not understand.

I tend to think that the latter point is more relevant. Dosaku made good use of opponents who did not understand the opening as well as he did.

[wineandgolover]

I promise that Chitetsu understood the 3-5 better than AKaios's (OP) opponents will. It may not be trendy, but it is surely a full value opening move.

[ez4u]

I promise that Chitetsu understood the 3-5 better than AKaios's (OP) opponents will. It may not be trendy, but it is surely a full value opening move.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Personally I think an observed 50-60 times difference in the choice of 4-4 and 3-4 over 5-3 requires a little more than 'not trendy' to explain it. Actually everything points to it not being a full value opening move, IMHO.

[John Fairbairn]

Personally I think an observed 50-60 times difference in the choice of 4-4 and 3-4 over 5-3 requires a little more than 'not trendy' to explain it. Actually everything points to it not being a full value opening move, IMHO.

That seems to accord with the usual explanation that White often used 5-3 as a way of unbalancing the game in the days of no komi in particular. (And of course Black can do the same if that suits his style.) The 5-3 is like an octopus, quietly sliding away along the sea-bed until attacked, whereupon it puts up a tangled web of tentacles. Its reputation for ladders might also be likened to a squirt of blinding ink. But its lack of pincering power makes it less forcing and less easy to integrate with other stones. Modern players prefer to be lobsters.

[daal]

Are there any complete strategies for the 5-4 or 3-5? For the 3-4, 4-4, and 3-3, there are books dedicated to the opening strategy. I gather most of the 3-5, 5-4 strategy is geared towards large scale joseki, but it seems there should be more to it, than an addendum on odd openings.

The latest version of GoGoD contains over 28,000 even games from the period since 2002 (roughly the 6.5 komi era). These yield us some 114,000 empty corners. We find more than 59,000 first plays on 4-4 and more than 52,000 on 3-4. Then we find about 1,000 on 5-3, about 650 on 3-3, and about 400 on 5-4 (from there we drop down to about 100 for first play on tengen). So even if we find some complete strategy explained for the latter three points (and I've not seen one), we should be aware that they have little general acceptance in actual contemporary professional practice. As always, however, that should not necessarily be an obstacle for us feckless amateurs.

Probably a bit more time consuming, but I wonder if the moves would look as isolated if you also considered moves 2 - 4.

I promise that Chitetsu understood the 3-5 better than AKaios's (OP) opponents will. It may not be trendy, but it is surely a full value opening move.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Personally I think an observed 50-60 times difference in the choice of 4-4 and 3-4 over 5-3 requires a little more than 'not trendy' to explain it. Actually everything points to it not being a full value opening move, IMHO.

Doesn't the value for an amateur lie in playing it and learning it's advantages and disadvantages?

[SmoothOper]

Personally I think an observed 50-60 times difference in the choice of 4-4 and 3-4 over 5-3 requires a little more than 'not trendy' to explain it. Actually everything points to it not being a full value opening move, IMHO.

That seems to accord with the usual explanation that White often used 5-3 as a way of unbalancing the game in the days of no komi in particular.

Why wouldn't this still be a valid strategy? When was the last time it trended?

(And of course Black can do the same if that suits his style.) The 5-3 is like an octopus, quietly sliding away along the sea-bed until attacked, whereupon it puts up a tangled web of tentacles. Its reputation for ladders might also be likened to a squirt of blinding ink. But its lack of pincering power makes it less forcing and less easy to integrate with other stones. Modern players prefer to be lobsters.

It's like any strategy that is especially good at something, it's value is in how well the weaknesses can be delt with, since more often than not that's what will be played against it. I haven't seen any literature that covers these details in depth, though it does have a substantial history in top level play. IE what does a player do without a pincer. Build a wall?