Why do you want to be _____d/____k?

[Bantari]

a) people are under the impression that go is somehow 'more fun' when you are 1d (as opposed to 5k, for example), or

Go is more fun when I'm improving, and an improvement in rank is the best proxy for improvement overall that I know of (with the usual caveats for how often someone plays, etc.).

Well, but this is a different thing. Improvement itself is fun because it is satisfactory.
To say 'I enjoy improving' is not the same a saying 'I want to be 1d'.

b) the game is somehow 'different' then, or

Actually, I think the game is different. I feel like I was playing a completely different game when I was 18k, 8k, 1k (with differences diminishing over time). But More importantly, I wouldn't belittle someone's desire for a more in-depth understanding of the game by characterizing their efforts as a misguided based on what this statement implies.

Come to think about it, you are probably right. I was just thinking the same thing myself.

But when I wrote what I wrote - what I mean about the game being 'different' is this:
You will still lose 50% of your games, you will still look at positions and have no clue where to play, and you will still meet people able to beat the pants off of you. In this sense, weather you are 5k or 5d - nothing much changes (or at least nothing changed in my case.) My impression is that people think that it does.

c) they chase after some imagined status within their local groups.

In fairness, this isn't always imagined. It may be (or may not be) a misguided source of motivation, and it may not bring the awards one believes, but there are plenty of groups where this is not imagined.

Boy, you are a little pistol today, aren't you?

And again - you are right.
I should have chosen my words better, and 'misguided' is a much better and more factual description than 'imagined'. Thank you for pointing it out.

Sprinkle a dose of levity appropriate for a hobby on these reasons, and they seem perfectly fine to me. And maybe you intended your post with that tone.

No... I have to confess to have written it with a dose of bitterness about all the rank chasers and rank cheaters and rank discussions and rank goals and rank rank rank... I understand that I am probably getting bent out of shape over something which is not really such a big deal, but at that time I was a little bitter. All this rank chasing is one of my hot buttons, and I tend to over-react at times.

[SoDesuNe]

I still want to reach at least 5-dan EGF (around 6-dan KGS) in my lifetime. Of course before that it was "becoming 1-dan" as well.
I think Go is similiar to martial arts in regards to the ranks: Only if you've been awarded the black belt (1-dan), you are not a plain student anymore. Although you are still far away from mastery, the black belt is the first step towards it.

Besides this number I'd like to understand more from professional games. I'd like to be able to comment on professional games on a basic level. I would also like to play more strategically, really developping a whole-board-plan and pursuing it; right now I think my view of the board is pretty limited.

In the end I want to go deeper down the rabbit-hole to marvel at all the things I deemed impossible not long ago.

[PeterN]

I have a goal of reaching 4K at the moment because that's about the midpoint of the kyu level players at the local go club. Of course once I reach it I suspect I will want to go higher, so I'm probably just fooling myself in the reasoning behind my goal.

I'm going to disagree with A and C for myself, but I think the game is different as the players get stronger, more types of play open up. Invasions I can't recall hardly any of before maybe 15K with the exception of the 3-3 invasion for example. Although with you clarifying it you most likely are right (I'm not good enough to say yet), but it still feels like you're not.

PeterN

[hyperpape]

"When I see a move in a high dan or pro game which does something I could have never come up with myself in a beautiful, creative and/or deep way then I know why I want to become stronger."

The more I understand about a professional game, the more I'm impressed by.

[DrStraw]

When I first started to play, in 1973 in Britain, there was only one or two 5d and no 6d, so that seemed to me to be the highest reasonable amateur rank. I did not expect to reach it but it was a logical goal. I got to 1d and moved to the USA. There I eventually became 5d but realized it was still a stone or two short of a British 5d.

However, I had had this mental idea of 5d for 15 years and so I felt like I had reached my goal. At about that time other things became more important to me and so I never reached 6d (I topped out at 5.96 AGA) but that doesn't matter. I now realize that rank is not that important. What counts is how much you enjoy the game. Now I play for fun and don't try to win every game as long as I enjoy it. I am sure I could still play at 5d if I really set my mind to it, but I doubt I ever will any more.

[RobertJasiek]

When I started to attend clubs, my goal was to become European Championship. Why? Simply because without great goal there is no great achievement.

As a 1 kyu, I set a pragmatic intermediate goal to become 5 dan. Why? I wanted to enable myself to program an expert system program. (At that time, Monte Carlo was unheard of.)

As a 5 dan, the nature of my goal has changed: I want to explain the complete go theory. You know, I still think that without great goal there is no great achievement. My secondary goal is 10 dan, of course. The reason is the same.

Independently, the degree of fun of playing has remained essentially constant at a very high level. So increasing the fun of playing has never been my aim. However, the joy of better understanding has increased greatly. This is part of the reason for wishing to understand the complete go theory and doing related research.

A lot of asian teachers i've come across define a 1d as having a decent grasp of all the fundamentals.

Maybe they half understand what every concept is about, but using every fundamental concept well is for 4d or 5d. This is so especially for using influence well.

[Bantari]

Maybe they half understand what every concept is about, but using every fundamental concept well is for 4d or 5d. This is so especially for using influence well.

Heh... I wonder if a 9d would say that "using every fundamental concept well is for 8d or 9d."
Can we really judge that well those far above us? Or judge our own lack of understanding that well?

I think the pro was just being polite... what he really meant was that the 1 dan he was talking about was a pro 1 dan.

[often]

A lot of asian teachers i've come across define a 1d as having a decent grasp of all the fundamentals.

Maybe they half understand what every concept is about, but using every fundamental concept well is for 4d or 5d. This is so especially for using influence well.

dude, if you're going to follow my posts around and challenge my ideas you should do more than just object. all you ever say is "you're wrong" without any ideas or examples to back it up. besides, "decent grasp" and "using every fundamental concept well" are two different things.

if this line needs clarification for everyone else, this is more in reference to shape rather than concepts of how to play. a good example for this is the chinese teaching style where they let the kids play and get their attack and "killing strength" skills up to what they feel a 1d is. Then they rein them back and start showing them the more fine grained aspects of territory and playing concepts. the idea being that the willingness and ability to attack are very important and should always be in your play. This is much harder to learn if you try to apply concepts to the game and avoid fighting all the time. the easiest example of this is having a nice seemingly surrounded piece of territory and having someone play crude moves and somehow make life or connect out from it.

anyways, carry on everybody with your reasons for rank goals.

[shapenaji]

I'd like to make my way back down to 5k, there was so much to learn at my fingertips and so many more people to play! It was amazing.



But short of a little green man, or a major head injury, I think that's unlikely.

I don't want to stay where I am, because learning to see the board differently is the major draw for me. Of course I like to win, but I play because I want to peer deeper into the abyss.

So then, either stronger, or stylistically completely different.

For stronger I always aim 2 ranks ahead. It's just far enough that I'm aware that they see something that I don't.

For stylistically different, I don't know where to start

[TheBigH]

I want to be SDK because I'm about 10 or 11k now, and I'd like to be a stone stronger!

[Boidhre]

EGF 1d would be nice, but it should be obvious from that phrasing that I'm not overly pushed about it and I know I'm not putting in enough of an effort to get there right now. Playing interesting games is far more important to me, rank will either come or not come, I don't really care so long as I'm having fun when I sit down at the go board.

[skydyr]

I would like to be at whatever rank it takes to keep me from:

Playing moves I know don't work.
Sabotaging my own positions.
Using kiai as an excuse for really bad moves.
Looking at a board and wondering where the heck I'm supposed to play next, without any answers appearing.
Panicking.


I hear it may be a while.

[Bantari]

I would like to be at whatever rank it takes to keep me from:
Looking at a board and wondering where the heck I'm supposed to play next, without any answers appearing.
Panicking.

I am not sure about the other points, but about these two - I would not be surprised if the top pros have the same experience still.
Its the beauty of Go, and when in each position you know exactly where to play - it would be sooo boring.

So careful what you wish for.

Oh... and panicking has nothing to do with strength, really, just with control. I know high-dans who panic at times, and beginners who never do.

[BigDango]

For me personally as my rank has grown, I have been able to enjoy the game more. While I have no set goal, these are the benefits I have found come with rank:

-Respect
-Broader number of people to teach to
-More enjoyment when playing due to a deeper understanding of the game
-Community: Since you really understand the game, you have something to bond over w/ other people. It's hard at 25k to really "be a part of" the Go community. Most of the time at that level you don't know what people are talking about.
-Feeling accomplished

Now, I think at 1D, you get "the most bang for your time" as far as benefits of rank. I think that is why it is such a popular goal. And many who are 1D+ started out w/ a goal of getting to 1D. In a broad sense, most people I know who run full Marathons first started w/ halfs. Fulls where a goal at one point, but mostly because they could already do it.

I think the same is for Go, we get to "1D" to really "get into" the game. At that point it's kinda a way of life and we just see where it goes.

A very small % of people truly believe they are going pro, so 1D is just a stepping stone. I don't think this is advisable as a course of action for anybody though. That would be a separate discussion though.