ABCs of Attack and Defense (Beta copies)

[tchan001]

For those who don't really know what this book is about. Try the reviews here and here.
And the original price was $22
Source: webarchive

[Splatted]

Firstly let me say that upon realising that S&S do not hold the liscence to re-print the book I am now completely fine with what they're doing and think it actually sounds like quite a good deal

no-one puts this sort of investment and time into a niche market like go as a true business venture. In nearly every case the people who are involved in western go publishing are retired people giving something back to the game. Those who are not retired usually have full-time jobs elsewhere, but also want to give something back to the game.

[A general point not at all intended as a comment on slate and shell]

Shady business practices are shady business practices regardless of who's involved. If an actual friend tries to swindle me you can be damn sure I'll call them out on it, so why should I hold back on kindly strangers?

[Splatted]

Edit: just to reiterate: upon realising that S&S do not hold the liscence to re-print the book I am now completely fine with what they're doing and think it actually sounds like quite a good deal

They're the ones saying this book isn't worth a reprint and yet they charge a jacked up price for it...

Just because a book isn't worth a reprint doesn't mean that the price is jacked up. There are fixed costs associated with making a reprint order. I find the attribution of price-gouging intent to Slate and Shell disturbing.

That was some pretty selective quoting. I acknowledged that reprinting may not be viable:

I can see that it might be a situation where not enough people want the book to justify a reprint

And also acknowledged that what they were doing was basically standard business practice.

if any business thinks their product will sell well at a certain price it's a very optimistic person that expects them to sell for less.

But the reason I described their pricing as jacked up is because they have jacked up the price. They're selling an incomplete version of the book for significantly more than the full version retailed for, which is reasonable given that the demand outweighs their supply, but whichever way you look at it those are still jacked up prices.

P.s.

If Slate and Shell can sell their entire inventory at $35, then is someone who is willing to pay only $5 for the book more deserving of the limited quantity than someone who is willing to pay $35?

Are you implying that being willing to pay more means someone is more deserving? Because peoples' economic situations vary so much that that's just nonsensical.

[Boidhre]

Well, if you see it as a business, then what I wrote should apply.
It makes sense for them to sell it for $35 for now, from a business perspective, I assume. Maybe they will lower the price, maybe not, we will see.

Should apply? No. Could apply? Yes. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to sell products and pricing approaches. I agree, the customer is king phrase really isn't a thing in my country, so it doesn't hold any water for me.

[Bantari]

Well, if you see it as a business, then what I wrote should apply.
It makes sense for them to sell it for $35 for now, from a business perspective, I assume. Maybe they will lower the price, maybe not, we will see.

Should apply? No. Could apply? Yes.

The gist of what I wrote was: if they think it makes the most sense for them from business perspective, then they *should* do it.

Its how businesses are run. Which does not mean that this is how it always works out, but I don't think you can really take exception with the word *should* here. Businesses do what's good for businesses, as they *should*. They also *could* be nice to customers, of course, and lower their prices or even give things for free - this is another story for another thread. But first of all - they *should* do what's good for them, so they can stay in business.

Or - at least - this is my opinion. YMMD.

There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to sell products and pricing approaches. I agree, the customer is king phrase really isn't a thing in my country, so it doesn't hold any water for me.

[Boidhre]

My issue is this mainly. I used the term "price gouging" because, well, increasing the price dramatically when supply is short and demand is high is price gouging. There are more polite terms and more clinical business terms and I'd be lying if I said my company had never engaged in it, but we're adults I hope and such terms are pretty normal when the writer wants to cast the action more as anti-consumer than sharp business practice.

Go books are already expensive. $22 is a lot for a pretty short piece of work. Personally I compare them to chess books since these are also low volume books that require a lot of effort and a high degree of expertise to write, and the prices are reasonable in this regard. But $35 is getting into collector territory in terms of prices for a slim paperback (though it is far from expensive for a collector). This wouldn't bother me if it was a games collection or a fine treatise by a master or whatever. This isn't that though, it's a beginner book to use the broad sense or a weaker kyu player book to be more precise. This is a book that should be in the hands of keenly interested 10 kyu players, precisely the people we shouldn't be increasing prices on (and thus discouraging from the game). Books aimed at this level and weaker need to be as accessible as possible if the hobby is to grow. Increasing prices on a book that's considered one of the better introductions to the topic for these players really rubs me the wrong way.

[Boidhre]

Well, if you see it as a business, then what I wrote should apply.
It makes sense for them to sell it for $35 for now, from a business perspective, I assume. Maybe they will lower the price, maybe not, we will see.

Should apply? No. Could apply? Yes.

The gist of what I wrote was: if they think it makes the most sense for them from business perspective, then they *should* do it.

Its how businesses are run. Which does not mean that this is how it always works out, but I don't think you can really take exception with the word *should* here. Businesses do what's good for businesses, as they *should*. They also *could* be nice to customers, of course, and lower their prices or even give things for free - this is another story for another thread. But first of all - they *should* do what's good for them, so they can stay in business.

Or - at least - this is my opinion. YMMD.

That logic works when you don't expect to have a long sales relationship with a customer. So it works well with an Amazon 3rd party seller selling an out-of-print book. It doesn't work so well when you want this person buying from you to keep coming back to you when they want something similar. In such cases you don't maximise short term prices but aim for something that maximises long term income from this customer. This is why in business-to-business sales you tend to see a lot of discounting and long term sale agreements that save the customer money, and why you also can see it in more niche brick and mortar stores sometimes when a savvy owner knocks money off the prices for people who are good customers who they want to keep.

Note by the way that I never said S&S were wrong from a business perspective, merely that I disagree with what they're doing.

[Bantari]

My issue is this mainly. I used the term "price gouging" because, well, increasing the price dramatically when supply is short and demand is high is price gouging. There are more polite terms and more clinical business terms and I'd be lying if I said my company had never engaged in it, but we're adults I hope and such terms are pretty normal when the writer wants to cast the action more as anti-consumer than sharp business practice.

Go books are already expensive. $22 is a lot for a pretty short piece of work. Personally I compare them to chess books since these are also low volume books that require a lot of effort and a high degree of expertise to write, and the prices are reasonable in this regard. But $35 is getting into collector territory in terms of prices for a slim paperback (though it is far from expensive for a collector). This wouldn't bother me if it was a games collection or a fine treatise by a master or whatever. This isn't that though, it's a beginner book to use the broad sense or a weaker kyu player book to be more precise. This is a book that should be in the hands of keenly interested 10 kyu players, precisely the people we shouldn't be increasing prices on (and this discouraging from the game). Books aimed at this level and weaker need to be as accessible as possible if the hobby is to grow. Increasing prices on a book that's considered one of the better introductions to the topic for these players really rubs me the wrong way.

Price gouging is a good term, but I usually apply it to necessary goods, not to luxury good. If they drastically increase the price of food after hurricane destroyed your village, this is despicable. If they price a Ferrari the way they do - you still can get a Ford for cheaper. Go books to me are in the same category - nobody really *needs* a specific go book like they need food, and you can usually get similar info for cheaper or for free... its a luxury item, and if you want it you have to pay. Price gauging is a very simplistic definition with negative connotations which not always apply.

Having said the above, it does not need to be price gauging in this case. Many reasons can be true: low quality might mean higher markup to break even. Or higher storage costs. Or maybe they had to pay more to print/acquire it. I really have no clue (do you?), but there can be many other solutions than "they are just greedy."

And even then - the fact that you have to pay more for rare items is acceptable in each field, I think. This is not really price gauging in the negative sense you mean it.

PS>
Again - really don't see what the issue is here, other than the need to incessantly complain about *something*.
If the book is not worth the money to *you*, don't buy it. Simple. It might be worth the money to somebody else, and so *they* will buy it - and more power to them. If it is not worth the money to *nobody* - the price will have to be dropped eventually and everybody other than the seller will benefit.

[Kirby]

...
2. What follows from this is that the customer is NOT king. The customer is meant to be a go friend who understand what is being done on his behalf. And friends should act like friends, being supportive where possible, being tactful when disagreeing. And if the customer doesn't like what I do, the whole point of a hobby is that I don't have to care.

Likewise, customers don't have to care. You don't care if customers don't like what you do? That's fine. Don't make books, then. You want to keep doing it? That's fine, too.

What is objectionable is to decide that you personall would rather not buy, and then to go online and publically slag off a go-community partner that has given you plenty of service in the past and is doing you personally no disservice now. It is gratuitous. It is offensive.

If you find feedback on your work offensive, you have options:
1.) Learn and adjust from the feedback.
2.) Ignore the feedback.
3.) Stop doing the "service".
...

There's no obligation that customers have to put you on a pedestal and worship what you've done. What constitutes "service" is subject to opinion. Maybe to "publically slag off" your customers is offensive. It's a two-way street.

[Bantari]

That logic works when you don't expect to have a long sales relationship with a customer.

I disagree. Its not like they do it pretty much across the board for all their books.
I don't think they will really lose customers over one book which is more expensive when everything else they sell is priced at lower levels.

You go to a cheap bookstore... will you stop buying there when you find they offer one book at a price you disagree with?!?

Its really not about relationship... unless this one item will become such a huge deal and gets blown out of proportions so much by a few people that they will get blackmailed to lower the price just to avoid bad rep. But then - because of what John said - they might also decide to pack their bags and go play in a different sandbox at that point. Small chance, but who knows... I have seen things like that happen before.

[Bantari]

It's a two-way street.

Exactly!!!

If we are to expect the service providers to treat us with respect, we also need to treat them with respect.
Which means - when we have a criticism, we should word it appropriately rather than starting a smear campaign (generally speaking). After all - we *do* expect *them* to treat us with civility.

Quotes like 'customer is the king' and talk about 'price gauging' when you dislike a price - this is *not* two-way street.

[Boidhre]

My issue is this mainly. I used the term "price gouging" because, well, increasing the price dramatically when supply is short and demand is high is price gouging. There are more polite terms and more clinical business terms and I'd be lying if I said my company had never engaged in it, but we're adults I hope and such terms are pretty normal when the writer wants to cast the action more as anti-consumer than sharp business practice.

Go books are already expensive. $22 is a lot for a pretty short piece of work. Personally I compare them to chess books since these are also low volume books that require a lot of effort and a high degree of expertise to write, and the prices are reasonable in this regard. But $35 is getting into collector territory in terms of prices for a slim paperback (though it is far from expensive for a collector). This wouldn't bother me if it was a games collection or a fine treatise by a master or whatever. This isn't that though, it's a beginner book to use the broad sense or a weaker kyu player book to be more precise. This is a book that should be in the hands of keenly interested 10 kyu players, precisely the people we shouldn't be increasing prices on (and this discouraging from the game). Books aimed at this level and weaker need to be as accessible as possible if the hobby is to grow. Increasing prices on a book that's considered one of the better introductions to the topic for these players really rubs me the wrong way.

Price gouging is a good term, but I usually apply it to necessary goods, not to luxury good. If they drastically increase the price of food after hurricane destroyed your village, this is despicable. If they price a Ferrari the way they do - you still can get a Ford for cheaper. Go books to me are in the same category - nobody really *needs* a specific go book like they need food, and you can usually get similar info for cheaper or for free... its a luxury item, and if you want it you have to pay. Price gauging is a very simplistic definition with negative connotations which not always apply.

Having said the above, it does not need to be price gauging in this case. Many reasons can be true: low quality might mean higher markup to break even. Or higher storage costs. Or maybe they had to pay more to print/acquire it. I really have no clue (do you?), but there can be many other solutions than "they are just greedy."

And even then - the fact that you have to pay more for rare items is acceptable in each field, I think. This is not really price gauging in the negative sense you mean it.

PS>
Again - really don't see what the issue is here, other than the need to incessantly complain about *something*.
If the book is not worth the money to *you*, don't buy it. Simple. It might be worth the money to somebody else, and so *they* will buy it - and more power to them. If it is not worth the money to *nobody* - the price will have to be dropped eventually and everybody other than the seller will benefit.

Did you read the first post? They found a box of these books in their warehouse that they had thought they'd thrown out. Any printing or storage costs were already sunk and written off a long time ago.

Also dividing simply between necessary and luxury goods is a bit simplistic no? I mean, I wouldn't exactly throw the latest Dan Brown book and Ferrari into the same category when I'm thinking of how to price goods because the economics are completely different between the two.

Finally, incessantly complain? Please point out to me my last post criticising the go industry or pricing. Cheers.

[Bantari]

My issue is this mainly. I used the term "price gouging" because, well, increasing the price dramatically when supply is short and demand is high is price gouging. There are more polite terms and more clinical business terms and I'd be lying if I said my company had never engaged in it, but we're adults I hope and such terms are pretty normal when the writer wants to cast the action more as anti-consumer than sharp business practice.

Go books are already expensive. $22 is a lot for a pretty short piece of work. Personally I compare them to chess books since these are also low volume books that require a lot of effort and a high degree of expertise to write, and the prices are reasonable in this regard. But $35 is getting into collector territory in terms of prices for a slim paperback (though it is far from expensive for a collector). This wouldn't bother me if it was a games collection or a fine treatise by a master or whatever. This isn't that though, it's a beginner book to use the broad sense or a weaker kyu player book to be more precise. This is a book that should be in the hands of keenly interested 10 kyu players, precisely the people we shouldn't be increasing prices on (and this discouraging from the game). Books aimed at this level and weaker need to be as accessible as possible if the hobby is to grow. Increasing prices on a book that's considered one of the better introductions to the topic for these players really rubs me the wrong way.

Price gouging is a good term, but I usually apply it to necessary goods, not to luxury good. If they drastically increase the price of food after hurricane destroyed your village, this is despicable. If they price a Ferrari the way they do - you still can get a Ford for cheaper. Go books to me are in the same category - nobody really *needs* a specific go book like they need food, and you can usually get similar info for cheaper or for free... its a luxury item, and if you want it you have to pay. Price gauging is a very simplistic definition with negative connotations which not always apply.

Having said the above, it does not need to be price gauging in this case. Many reasons can be true: low quality might mean higher markup to break even. Or higher storage costs. Or maybe they had to pay more to print/acquire it. I really have no clue (do you?), but there can be many other solutions than "they are just greedy."

And even then - the fact that you have to pay more for rare items is acceptable in each field, I think. This is not really price gauging in the negative sense you mean it.

PS>
Again - really don't see what the issue is here, other than the need to incessantly complain about *something*.
If the book is not worth the money to *you*, don't buy it. Simple. It might be worth the money to somebody else, and so *they* will buy it - and more power to them. If it is not worth the money to *nobody* - the price will have to be dropped eventually and everybody other than the seller will benefit.

Did you read the first post? They found a box of these books in their warehouse that they had thought they'd thrown out. Any printing or storage costs were already sunk and written off a long time ago.

Also dividing simply between necessary and luxury goods is a bit simplistic no? I mean, I wouldn't exactly throw the latest Dan Brown book and Ferrari into the same category when I'm thinking of how to price goods because the economics are completely different between the two.

Finally, incessantly complain? Please point out to me my last post criticising the go industry or pricing. Cheers.

Heh... ok... so you don't complain, the book is crucial to you, and they have no cost associated with the book at all. I am completely wrong, and you are completely right.

Happy?
Now go on and keep complaining how it is too expensive for you, and not worth it, and they are price gauging you, bad bad greedy capitalists. If that makes you happy, I bet it will produce great results too. Good luck.

[Boidhre]

Heh... ok... so you don't complain, the book is crucial to you, and they have no cost associated with the book at all. I am completely wrong, and you are completely right.

Happy?
Now go on and keep complaining how it is too expensive for you, and not worth it, and they are price gauging you, bad bad greedy capitalists. If that makes you happy, I bet it will produce great results too. Good luck.

What?

[Bonobo]

[..]
Or - at least - this is my opinion. YMMD.

Really? That’s interesting.Or did you mean YMMV?


I find it perfectly OK to dispute the price of anything and the behaviour of anybody in a public place, especially of a company that sells something. But I also (think I) understand situation of authors with a small readership (I also know quite a few “small” artists who have difficulty to live off their arts just because in hard times that’s where people cut their expenses). (This might explain my “likes” spread on both sides of the front line )

Anyway, I think I don’t want to indulge in this here, it’s rather that I’ve gotten curious about this book. And I live in Germany … and—ZOMFG!—shipping cost is $24 … anybody else in Germany interested so we could share the (flat rate) shipping cost?

Sammelbestellung, anybody?


Herzlichen Gruß, Tom