Damezumari, anyone?

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Bill Spight
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Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

Here is a nice problem I just ran across. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Enjoy!
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Visualize whirled peas.

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moyoaji
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by moyoaji »

Is this it?
After extending one more black can still win the capturing race against the lower white 3 stones, but he can also capture the 3 on top. If white resists by trying to capture black, black can play this way and threaten to escape. If white insists then he can treat the 3 as a thrown in and kill white like this. White cannot block due to a shortage of liberties and then, after the capture and connecting back playing inside or putting the 3 white stones in atari are miai for killing white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White failure
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 7 |
$$ . . . X O 6 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 9 |
$$ . . . . . X O C |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If white tries to resist like this, black just wins the capturing race. White can make 1 eye, but 1 eye does not a live white group make.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B More failure from white
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 4 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
EDIT: This seems to work and is even easier. White cannot capture 5 anyway; still not enough liberties. Nor can white push to atari black. Black just connects back.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black connects back and white still fails
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 6 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
EDIT2: Do want to note that white can start a ko. If he has a 40 point threat he might make this solution bad.
Last edited by moyoaji on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by RBerenguel »

moyoaji's solution above looks reasonable (I didn't completely read it because I don't want to spoil myself the "real" reading :)) but this in this problem the marked spot gives me feelings. Seems to not work, but anyway..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O x . . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Bill Spight
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Ko is not the answer. Black can kill. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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moyoaji
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: ko threat, :b9: responds
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 0 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If black has no threat how does he respond to this?
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Splatted
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Splatted »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X a O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O b |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: ko threat, :b9: responds
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 0 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If black has no threat how does he respond to this?
That depends on the rest of the board. Early in the game he should play elsewhere. Later he should just capture the three stones, which will probably be sente.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X a O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O b |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 4 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

Well, nobody has found the solution yet, so here are the first two plays. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
:b1: is obviously a vital point. For one thing, it is where White would play to live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 3 1 2 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If :w2: is this hane, :b3: plainly kills.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Shaddy
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Bill Spight
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

@ Shaddy

What next? :)
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Visualize whirled peas.

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moyoaji
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by moyoaji »

Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I had considered that, but this wins for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X 2 O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Bill Spight
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

moyoaji wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I had considered that, but this wins for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X 2 O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hint:
Try a different :b9: :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by SoDesuNe »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 5 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 9 |
$$ . . X . . O 7 O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O 8 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Post by Bill Spight »

SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 5 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 9 |
$$ . . X . . O 7 O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O 8 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hint:
Reconsider :b4: in variation 2. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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