Is KGS developement dead or just slow?

[oren]

With all the talk in this topic I need to ask: have you checked OGS (old nova)?

It still has a fairly bad UI. I'm hoping that will get better over time but until then, I would still recommend KGS to new go players.

[leichtloeslich]

KGS development is just slow, as is evidenced by the google+ blog of wms.

Nah, if an easy to fix bug that basically every single user (especially the new ones that we care so much about) has been bitching about for ages hasn't been fixed by now, then no, KGS development is not slow, it is dead.

Holding up the efforts of William to create an html5 client that nobody asked for while not fixing any of the issues people actually do complain about is like telling people who are on fire "We are slowly working on a solution, soon you will be able to burn in a different colour!".

Hey, I have a project that I work on every 5 years for half a minute. Development isn't dead, it's just resting!

[DrStraw]

I am genuinely curious. Why is everyone so bothered about the lack of sound? Isn't there enough noise in the world already? Isn't go supposed to be a game played in a contemplative mood - hence peaceful and quiet?

I am not trolling. I really am curious. I just don't get it. I never turn the speakers on on my computer unless really necessary.

[Boidhre]

If the man in charge is really not interessted in continuing he or she might as well pass the torch. I believe there are many people that would put their heart into this server.

You are welcome to believe that, but in fact WMS has shown vastly more long-term interest in developing his server than any other developer has. There has been big talk about how awful KGS is for nearly a decade now (you used to be able to go into Sensei's Library and look at the fevered discussion of the "Universal Go Server", which was apparently the Kaya of the '00s), but during all that time no one else has ever followed through on the promise to make something as good, let alone better. We now also have at least one example of someone (Topazg) who created an excellent turn-based go server and handed it over to someone who promised to "put his heart into" further development, only to shut it down and hand the users over to a server which lacks features the original OGS had had for years.

I don't actually use KGS's new features, but it does seem that every few months something new comes along - mostly improvements in the way the Android client works. I don't have a smartphone so I don't care, but for a man with a job, kids, and a go server to run pro bono, it seems like he makes steady progress. It makes me sad that people find it so easy to fawn and slobber over saltimbanques like the Kaya admins but are always so sharp with WMS.

The issue has never been that Go servers weren't as good as KGS. The issue has always been "there aren't enough people there." Which has little to do with how good the service is and mostly has to do with inertia effects and people just logging to the old and trusted rather than suffer through the early stage of a go server where you can't expect loads of people logged in wanting games.

Unless a true "killer feature" comes out, most people won't move and even when it does happen it'll normally take a long time for quite a large number of people to move over. It's seen all the time when State monopolies are broken up and competition introduced, a very large number of people will stick with the old monopoly even if it loses them money because they can't think of seeing anything but "ESB" on their electricity bills.

[Pippen]

KGS is for free, it is stable & nice-looking, has a sound rank system (look over to Tygem to some 4D's who lose to 1k's on KGS), has lots of people and sometimes you can even chat with someone about god and the world. Even if it was dead I'd stay there. No server is as community-like as KGS.

Since it is for free we gotta be patient. There is no feature that MUST be fixed anyway.

[Mef]

Holding up the efforts of William to create an html5 client that nobody asked for

An html5 client would fix all java related issues (including the sound bug) as well as enable playing on iOS devices. I would say that these things have most definitely been asked for. Also people seem to be pushing for browser based clients (even if I don't agree with them). The fact that he keeps a blog of development progress seems to make it harder to claim development is dead.

[Boidhre]

KGS is for free, it is stable & nice-looking, has a sound rank system (look over to Tygem to some 4D's who lose to 1k's on KGS), has lots of people and sometimes you can even chat with someone about god and the world. Even if it was dead I'd stay there. No server is as community-like as KGS.

Since it is for free we gotta be patient. There is no feature that MUST be fixed anyway.

I'd argue for sound as a "MUST" (No, I would not ever downgrade Java to fix an issue like this). I can appreciate it's just a bit of fluff for some though. I'm appreciative that it's free. I'm annoyed somewhat by it staying one man's project when he doesn't seem to have the time to fix things in a timely fashion but that's his call not anyone else's to make and it's certainly not something I'd give him crap over.

I think if people accepted that they'll never have everything they want in a go server at the same time then there'd be far less heat and a lot more light in the discussions.

[Mef]

The issue has never been that Go servers weren't as good as KGS. The issue has always been "there aren't enough people there." Which has little to do with how good the service is and mostly has to do with inertia effects and people just logging to the old and trusted rather than suffer through the early stage of a go server where you can't expect loads of people logged in wanting games.

Unless a true "killer feature" comes out, most people won't move and even when it does happen it'll normally take a long time for quite a large number of people to move over. It's seen all the time when State monopolies are broken up and competition introduced, a very large number of people will stick with the old monopoly even if it loses them money because they can't think of seeing anything but "ESB" on their electricity bills.

I think that one thing that gets glossed over in these conversations is that KGS faced all of these same issues when it was launched. Users didn't just show up and play, they were accumulated over a period of longer than a decade (and even now, it's still not the size of the server it was aiming to improve upon)...One of the big things a new server needs is a single person or a small core of people willing to pump in a large amount of energy for a long time in order to achieve a critical mass. I think a lot of the go servers that spring up have people who have a lot of energy for a short time, then get bored and move on to other things. I'd guess it takes about 5 years or so for a server to really start to get settled in....though perhaps it's even longer...

[EdLee]

...or a small core of people willing to pump in a large amount of energy for a long time in order to achieve a critical mass.

Yes. Two other factors are funding and culture:
does anyone have the stats on how much funding and time were needed for the recent
Korean/Chinese Go server(s) to get to critical mass ?

[snorri]

Holding up the efforts of William to create an html5 client that nobody asked for

An html5 client would fix all java related issues (including the sound bug) as well as enable playing on iOS devices. I would say that these things have most definitely been asked for. Also people seem to be pushing for browser based clients (even if I don't agree with them). The fact that he keeps a blog of development progress seems to make it harder to claim development is dead.

I agree with Mef.

WMS can totally do what he pleases. Maybe if he completely broke KGS some KGS+ refunds would be in order, but it's still running and there are players on it playing in real time, as opposed to the 1 live game currently on Nova/OGS/whatever.

You can't even buy SmartGo for Windows right now, but no one is saying SmartGo is dead because it's obvious that Anders is spending his time on other things like SmartGo Kifu and SmartGo books. It works for him, he likes it, and it's popular. If you don't have an iPad or iPhone, you might be tempted to say that no one asked for that, but he has no obligation to make everyone happy.

You might just as well say Java itself is dead. They're just adding junk no one asked for, after all. Lambdas, for heaven's sake. As if anyone writes functional programs to do anything but write compilers for their own pet functional programming languages... (Actually, I like them myself, but that's likely a defect of my brain. "Functional programming combines the flexibility and power of abstract mathematics with the intuitive clarity of abstract mathematics." -xkcd)

[BigDoug]

I enjoy these discussions about the state of KGS development quite a bit. They usually follow a pattern.

1. Someone says that a missing bug fix or feature means that KGS is dead or dying (e.g., sound bug, one-colour go, speaking count-down byo-omi clocks).

2. People who have never written or maintained a go server agree that the bug fix or feature could be coded almost instantaneously.

3. Different people who use KGS regularly disagree with the original poster, saying that KGS isn't perfect, but it's fit for purpose

4. The original poster or those who joined in step 2 proclaim their love for KGS and/or go in general as an explanation of why they're so critical of KGS and/or its developer.

5. The discussion becomes technical as various contributors display their knowledge of some aspect of IT

6. The discussion gradually grinds to a halt.

7. People continue to log into KGS and play go.

[Boidhre]

The issue has never been that Go servers weren't as good as KGS. The issue has always been "there aren't enough people there." Which has little to do with how good the service is and mostly has to do with inertia effects and people just logging to the old and trusted rather than suffer through the early stage of a go server where you can't expect loads of people logged in wanting games.

Unless a true "killer feature" comes out, most people won't move and even when it does happen it'll normally take a long time for quite a large number of people to move over. It's seen all the time when State monopolies are broken up and competition introduced, a very large number of people will stick with the old monopoly even if it loses them money because they can't think of seeing anything but "ESB" on their electricity bills.

I think that one thing that gets glossed over in these conversations is that KGS faced all of these same issues when it was launched. Users didn't just show up and play, they were accumulated over a period of longer than a decade (and even now, it's still not the size of the server it was aiming to improve upon)...One of the big things a new server needs is a single person or a small core of people willing to pump in a large amount of energy for a long time in order to achieve a critical mass. I think a lot of the go servers that spring up have people who have a lot of energy for a short time, then get bored and move on to other things. I'd guess it takes about 5 years or so for a server to really start to get settled in....though perhaps it's even longer...

It's more that it's not particularly relevant. Start 5 random go servers 5 years ago and one will become king most likely or more rarely a duopoly will emerge. Just because something is the most popular tells you little about whether its the best. Network effects (play where your friend plays) and simple inertia (I can't be bothered to start a new account and get another stable rank again) will ensure than even a sub-par server can remain top.

None of this is a criticism of KGS, I don't consider it sub-par. It's just being the biggest, or having been small once, aren't very telling other than a) the server is pretty stable and b) some factor gave it an edge in the beginning and this factor could be luck or a feature or simple good word of mouth.

[Codexus]

b) some factor gave it an edge in the beginning and this factor could be luck or a feature or simple good word of mouth.

KGS had:
- some initial notoriety due the prior existence of wms's CGoban version 1 (SGF editor + IGS client)
- A much friendlier user interface than IGS that still required typing commands for many operations
- Unique "killer" features like the ability to review a game
- An emphasis on social interactions and chat. KGS is a go community not just a way to play games anonymously.
- Dedication from wms and the volunteers that joined him that worked really hard to make it work.

Even with such clear advantages it took years to convince most people that KGS was worth a try. I remember not so long ago that people at the local go club did not take KGS seriously when I recommended it to them.

[Mef]

It's more that it's not particularly relevant. Start 5 random go servers 5 years ago and one will become king most likely or more rarely a duopoly will emerge. Just because something is the most popular tells you little about whether its the best. Network effects (play where your friend plays) and simple inertia (I can't be bothered to start a new account and get another stable rank again) will ensure than even a sub-par server can remain top.

None of this is a criticism of KGS, I don't consider it sub-par. It's just being the biggest, or having been small once, aren't very telling other than a) the server is pretty stable and b) some factor gave it an edge in the beginning and this factor could be luck or a feature or simple good word of mouth.

In the case of KGS though IGS existed (and had existed for 7 years at the time), was popular, and was stable. In fact IGS is still larger than KGS. The point was the KGS aimed to implement features it felt IGS was lacking and continued to do so for many years regardless of who was playing on it (because at many times the numbers were quite few) until it finally built up a player base. This is where many of the new fall flat (and perhaps even some of the older servers as well). They have the drive and start of implementing things they like to see in a go server (whether it be Fischer Time, WHR rating systems, malkovich comments, etc) however the second part is continuing to do this for an extended period while you build a community. This second part takes years and years to occur, barring some strange catastrophic event (e.g. godiscussions dying and spawning L19). Basically in order for a community to grow, you must have people pumping energy into it. Otherwise it will die, or if you have reached a critical mass, perhaps sustain (a la goshrine).

[Boidhre]

I disagree with neither of you about KGS's origins. I don't speak specifically about them because, well, I wasn't around for the transition from IGS to KGS by the Western community and have only read about it here and there. My point was that it doesn't matter now. KGS is no longer the young, game-changing server that it was back in the day. It could be quite a bit behind other servers and still hold onto members in the short term just due to the inertia effect you both mention regarding the early days of KGS taking people from IGS. Pointing to server populations as a measure of how good a server is generally is incorrect, just as pointing to IGS in the early days of KGS and saying it was a better server because it had the big population would be equally odd.

I always used think of OGS (RIP) and DGS. I found DGS horrible in comparison to the feature set of OGS, I could never understand why DGS was so, so much larger until I remembered the inertia effects in post-monopoly markets.