Antti Törmänen's Bachelor's Thesis: Building a Human Master

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Re: Antti Törmänen's Bachelor's Thesis: Building a Human Mas

Post by quantumf »

John Fairbairn wrote:Just one small and arguable (i.e. Discuss here) point. The dissertation refers to Fujisawa Rina becoming an expert by qualifying as a pro after six years and so disproving the ten-year rule.

I think it is reasonable to question whether qualifying as a pro makes you an expert. Getting a degree, even first class with honours, does not make you an expert in your field. Pro 1-dan is really just getting a degree, an acknowledgement that you are fit to make a career in this field.


I'm not sure that turning pro makes you an expert, but I find the analogy with degrees unsatisfying - the level of competition required to turn pro makes it a very different environment. There is no naked competition with other prospective Bachelor candidates to get those three available BSc spots. All the candidates can get the degree if they work hard enough and master some basic academic skills (passing exams, writing papers).
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Re: Antti Törmänen's Bachelor's Thesis: Building a Human Mas

Post by SoDesuNe »

Some parts I found especially interesting. It's not always eye-opening but personally I had similiar opinions to the following themes and I'm glad that they can now be found in a scientific paper : )

On intelligence and Go:
3.1 “Individual differences in cognitive capacity” - last paragraph wrote:In other words, the biology of an individual’s brains has a limited importance in the development of expertise. It is more important, for example, how interested the individual is in their domain, or how much time the individual ends up using practising.

On the ten-year-rule:
3.2 “The development of constantly-utilized skills into expertise” - first paragraph wrote:[...] that, by being “exposed” to a ten years’ worth of experience, everybody could become an expert. Later studies have consistently showed that when an individual reaches an acceptable level of skill for themselves, additional experience will then yield marginal utility [13, pp. 691]. It is for example easy to find amateur Go players who have played tens of thousands of games, but still play at an intermediate level—and on the other hand, there also exist fast-improving players, who may be called skilful after they have only played a thousand games or so. It is clear that mere time expended in a domain is a bad measure of skill, as the utility of time is not always same.

On memorising professional records and solving Go problems:
3.2 “The development of constantly-utilized skills into expertise” - last paragraph wrote:In Japanese Go schools, as well, deliberate practise is used. Common training consists of the playing of games, their post-analysis, reading of theory books, rote learning of played professional games, and solving of Go problems. Of these, the two last are not very obvious methods of training, but they are given a notably big weight. Rote learning of played professional games is thought to develop a player’s intuition: it increases the number of familiar shapes and sequences contained in a player’s memory, the shapes and sequences then becoming available to call out from the memory for use when needed. Like so, rote learning is effective at improving a player’s global intuition of the Go board, while go problems—meaning situations in which a player is to make a group of Go stones to live or to die in a restricted space—improve a player’s intuition for local situations. The teacher of a Go school often fine-tunes the learning material, depending on the student’s phase of learning.

On pattern recognition:
4.2 Expertise and short-term memory - last paragraph wrote:[...] it has been estimated that an expert of chess or Go should know some 10000-100000 different game patterns [22, pp. 5].

Why professional Go players are experts:
5.1 Measuring expertise in chess and Go - fourth paragraph wrote:In the context of go, in Asia and the United States there are certified professional players who are qualified in annually held professional examinations. Because the players participating in the examinations on average come from the very top spectrum of amateur players, and because very few players end up qualifying to become professionals, it is justified to call professional go players experts in the game.

How to practice:
5.3 On reaching the skills required for expertise in chess and Go - second paragraph wrote:Deliberate practise is generally accepted and reliably proven to be one of the most efficient means to learn new skills [13, pp. 601]. As was mentioned in Chapter 3, simple additional experience may not help at all at learning new skills or at improving one’s playing level. In deliberate practise, it is essential that the practise be done in a concentrated mind set, that it be regulated and monitored, and that it involves immediate feedback of the individual’s performance. The feedback may come from a third-party evaluator, or the practiser may provide it for himself, for example by comparing one’s performance to expert performance in a similar situation. In deliberate practise, an individual is given goals and aims that are above his current performance level, and while the individual strives for these, failures and lower-level performance may result on a shorter time span. Individuals striving for expertise may, indeed, see these failures as opportunities to improve. [13, pp 601]. In other words, the crucial factor becomes that the individual actively and constantly strives to improve, and doesn’t end up merely “accumulating more experience” [9, pp. 163]. Quantity doesn’t make up for quality at deliberate practise, either: it has been noted that even when looking at very different domains of expertise, experts usually train for only 4-5 hours a day on average. Too much practise may, depending on the domain, lead to practise injuries or so-called “burnout”. [13, pp. 699].

The advantages of having a teacher:
5.3 On reaching the skills required for expertise in chess and Go - last paragraph wrote:Getting instruction from a current expert is definitely the easier solution for the student, as by so doing the student delegates the preparation of study material to the expert, and can themselves fully concentrate on the actual practise. With this procedure, the student has the additional advantage of having a third party who will actively monitor their improvement, and give additional guidance and coaching if necessary.
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Re: Antti Törmänen's Bachelor's Thesis: Building a Human Mas

Post by karaklis »

SoDesuNe wrote:
5.3 On reaching the skills required for expertise in chess and Go - second paragraph wrote:Deliberate practise is generally accepted and reliably proven to be one of the most efficient means to learn new skills [13, pp. 601].Too much practise may, depending on the domain, lead to practise injuries or so-called “burnout”. [13, pp. 699].

As I have obviously been affected by this, it would be interesting to know how to overcome this, or for new players how to avoid this in advance.
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Re: Antti Törmänen's Bachelor's Thesis: Building a Human Mas

Post by CnP »

quantumf wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:Just one small and arguable (i.e. Discuss here) point. The dissertation refers to Fujisawa Rina becoming an expert by qualifying as a pro after six years and so disproving the ten-year rule.

I think it is reasonable to question whether qualifying as a pro makes you an expert. Getting a degree, even first class with honours, does not make you an expert in your field. Pro 1-dan is really just getting a degree, an acknowledgement that you are fit to make a career in this field.


I'm not sure that turning pro makes you an expert, but I find the analogy with degrees unsatisfying - the level of competition required to turn pro makes it a very different environment. There is no naked competition with other prospective Bachelor candidates to get those three available BSc spots. All the candidates can get the degree if they work hard enough and master some basic academic skills (passing exams, writing papers).


I agree with this - I think you'd have to step it up a level (or 2). Getting your PhD involves quite a bit of work, though there's not much competition once you've got funding (making insei?). Getting a lectureship seems better standard (1 Dan pro?) and professor = 4 Dan by JF's categories?.
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Re: Antti Törmänen's Bachelor's Thesis: Building a Human Mas

Post by SoDesuNe »

karaklis wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
5.3 On reaching the skills required for expertise in chess and Go - second paragraph wrote:Deliberate practise is generally accepted and reliably proven to be one of the most efficient means to learn new skills [13, pp. 601].Too much practise may, depending on the domain, lead to practise injuries or so-called “burnout”. [13, pp. 699].

As I have obviously been affected by this, it would be interesting to know how to overcome this, or for new players how to avoid this in advance.


The following is just an assumption. I don't have any medical degree whatsoever nor did I study anything related to "burnout".

As far as I know (and I don't know much) "burnout" is very diverse and can have unique features for the affected person. Mostly it surfaces due to extended stress.
In Go that might be because of the pressure to achieve one's goals. Although I doubt that this alone is the trigger. I guess, you have to add something defining to the mix. Maybe couple the goals with one's sense of self-worth. But even then I would think, you have to go further and presume some sort of unhealthy attachment, which hinders the person to step back and see the bigger picture. So that even when the person fails, which is normal and quite healthy, the person is unable to get to the core of the failure to find and tackle the underlying issue but starts feeling inadequate as a whole, which might at first trigger an increase in practice but due to the unsolved issues, which caused the initial failure, the efforts are mostly bound to fail as well. Until something in the mind switches (maybe because of self-preservation) and one develops a reluctance to the task.

In the end, for Go at least: If it ain't fun, don't do it.
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