vertical ladders

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
Post Reply
User avatar
cyclops
Lives in sente
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 pm
Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
GD Posts: 460
Location: Amsterdam (NL)
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 107 times
Contact:

vertical ladders

Post by cyclops »

Disclaimer: I am not sure this subject hasn't been touched before and I'm not even sure it isn't nonsense.

In real life ladders prefer a vertical position. Not so in go where they tend to have a diagonal direction.
In go we know the ladder as a sequence of moves in which alternating an attacker threatens to capture and a defender threatens to escape. Typically this repeats in a fixed pattern until an edge is reached or a so called ladderbreaker. This is the global aspect of ladders. Its success might be decided far, far away. If possible a local solution is preferable.
Usually we only consider diagonal ladders; they resemble a staircase. The ladder than develops parallel to a diagonal of the board.
I propose also to consider vertical ladders of which the next diagram is the simplest ( boring ) example.
first edit: please skip the hidden part it is rightly dismantled by Li Kao.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B to move first
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O |
$$ . . . . X . X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . O O O O X O O |
$$ . O X X X O X . |
$$ . . . X . O . X |
$$ ----------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 1: B to kill
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O |
$$ . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X O |
$$ . . , . X O |
$$ . X X X O O |
$$ . X O O X X |
$$ . . . . X . |
$$ ------------+[/go]

To kill B has to climb the ladder, chasing W up until W breaks his neck against the ceiling.

Like the diagonal ladder also the vertical ladder has more exiting variants.
Here an example resulting from a trick play in the tsuke-hiki joseki after a tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2a 6 tenuki
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 8 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ , . 0 9 7 2 , 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2b trickplay 5 at a
$$ --------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 9 2 a 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . 8 c 3 1 O O X X . . . |
$$ . . . , 4 O X X O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . b 7 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

after 4 B fears both the ( diagonal ) ladder at b and the capture at c ( miai ) so he tries the trickplay 5 at a.
7 defeats the diagonal ladder; 8 defeats the trickplay by a vertical ladder as shown in the next diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2c
$$ ----------------------------+
$$ . . . 6 3 5 . O . . . . . . |
$$ . . 1 X 2 X O . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . O 4 X X O O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The ladder gets its base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2d B gets killed in the opposite corner
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 8 5 1 . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 3 4 X X O X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 2 . O O X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2e 8 at a
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 9 a 5 1 . X X . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 X X O X X O X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 6 2 . O O . O O X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Question1: Is this last vertical ladder the only way to kill B's top or is there a local solution?
Question2: Anyone another type of a vertical ladder other than the two types shown here?

first edit: hidden the example critized in the next post by Li Kao ( thx )
Last edited by cyclops on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think I am so I think I am.
User avatar
Li Kao
Lives in gote
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:37 am
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: LiKao / Loki
Location: Munich, Germany
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 102 times

Re: vertical ladders

Post by Li Kao »

cyclops wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B to move first
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O |
$$ . . . . X . X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . O O O O X O O |
$$ . O X X X O X . |
$$ . . . X . O . X |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

I don't understand how to kill as black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B to move first
$$ . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 O |
$$ . . . . X . X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . O O O O X O O |
$$ . O X X X O X . |
$$ . . . X . O . X |
$$ ----------------+[/go]
Sanity is for the weak.
User avatar
cyclops
Lives in sente
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 pm
Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
GD Posts: 460
Location: Amsterdam (NL)
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 107 times
Contact:

Re: vertical ladders

Post by cyclops »

you are too smart ;) . I'll repair this example ( shouldn't be too difficult ). What about my other example. Isn't it cute?
I think I am so I think I am.
User avatar
Li Kao
Lives in gote
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:37 am
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: LiKao / Loki
Location: Munich, Germany
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 102 times

Re: vertical ladders

Post by Li Kao »

The other example looks to me like it contains mistakes too, but I'll leave it to a stronger player to figure it out.
Sanity is for the weak.
User avatar
Dusk Eagle
Gosei
Posts: 1758
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:02 pm
Rank: 4d
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 375 times

Re: vertical ladders

Post by Dusk Eagle »

This is how I've always seen it played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ----------------------------+
$$ . . 7 6 3 5 8 O . . . . . . |
$$ . . 1 X 2 X O . O . . . . . |
$$ . 0 . O 4 X X O O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B gets killed in the opposite corner
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 X X X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 X X O X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . O 4 O O X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Basically the same thing.

When I play out sequences in my head (i.e., not for an actual game being physically played), half the time they devolve into the sequence above. Yet I've never actually had an opportunity to use that move in a game.

I agree, the position is pretty cool.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
User avatar
cyclops
Lives in sente
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 pm
Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
GD Posts: 460
Location: Amsterdam (NL)
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 107 times
Contact:

Re: vertical ladders

Post by cyclops »

Dusk Eagle wrote:I agree, the position is pretty cool.


I thought for a moment your solution is local. But it isn't. B plays d18 next and the pattern repeats. It is another vertical ladder - maybe the same in another disguise - that accomplishes the same thing.
I think I am so I think I am.
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: vertical ladders

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

BTW, I think that the proper word here is orthogonal, not vertical.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Post Reply