Qustion: Life and death

[Boidhre]

Next to some members' names I see the phrases "lives in gote" "lives in sente", "dies in gote", etc. What is the difference between sente and gote?

If you die in gote your group was already dead, when you played another move there you changed nothing so your opponent can ignore it. Or even worse, your group's life status was undecided but the move you made killed it (though this may have a different term). It's a very bad thing normally.

[palapiku]

Or even worse, your group's life status was undecided but the move you made killed it (though this may have a different term).

Suicide in gote. I've seen this happen in a real game (that I was spectating) and it was the greatest thing ever.

[EdLee]

tynan, here are two (contrived) examples for you.
In both cases, assume komi = 0.0, and use territory scoring.

Case 1. Does live in sente or gote ?

B$$
$$ -------------
$$ | . X . O . |
$$ | 1 X . O O |
$$ | . X . O . |
$$ -------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]B$$
$$ -------------
$$ | . X . O . |
$$ | 1 X . O O |
$$ | . X . O . |
$$ -------------[/go]

Case 2. Does live in sente or gote ?

B$$
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 . . O |
$$ -------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]B$$
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 . . O |
$$ -------------[/go]

See also Sente and Gote.

[tynan]

Case 1: Black lives in Gote in order to answer White's last move (which probably established 2 eyes for White, while Black did not yet have 2 eyes and could therefore be killed). The score at the end of Black's 2-eye making move is a tie with White, 2-2.

Case 2: Black lives in Sente by doing two things at once: establishing a second eye, and threatening to prevent White from making a 3rd eye which would result in a winning score for White (3-2). White has to answer that move with a 3rd eye establishing move, aka a "gote" move.

Although I am not sure if gote actually applies to a player who is going to win with a gote move. In other words, is a move really gote when it gives a winning score?

[EdLee]

Correct for both cases. Nice!

Case 2: is gote, whether W wins or not.

B$$
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 2 . O |
$$ -------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]B$$
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 2 . O |
$$ -------------[/go]

[Bill Spight]

It's a trick question. Both are examples of living in gote.

$$Bc Gote
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 2 . O |
$$ -------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Gote
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 2 . O |
$$ -------------[/go]

Yes, White replies locally with , but that's only because it is White's turn and there is no place else to play. Not because is sente. To be sente, has to carry a large threat.

only threatens , which is a one point sente. (It is sente because it carries a large threat, to kill the White group.)

$$Bc Black sente
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . X 1 2 O |
$$ -------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Black sente
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . X 1 2 O |
$$ -------------[/go]

But living is huge by comparison.

$$Wc White kills
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 . . O |
$$ -------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc White kills
$$ -------------
$$ | . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O . |
$$ | . 1 . . O |
$$ -------------[/go]

White to play could kill for 12 points.

Here is an example of living with sente.

$$Bc Black sente
$$ ----------------
$$ | . 1 O O O a . |
$$ | X X O . X 2 . |
$$ | O X O O O X X |
$$ | . X X O . O . |
$$ ----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Black sente
$$ ----------------
$$ | . 1 O O O a . |
$$ | X X O . X 2 . |
$$ | O X O O O X X |
$$ | . X X O . O . |
$$ ----------------[/go]

lives in sente. threatens to kill a much larger group by playing at "a". In the nature of things, it is rare to live with sente, since living has to carry a huge threat.

Note that Black cannot win the fight if he does not make life first.

$$Bc Black loses the fight
$$ ----------------
$$ | 4 2 O O O 1 . |
$$ | X X O . X 3 . |
$$ | O X O O O X X |
$$ | . X X O . O . |
$$ ----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Black loses the fight
$$ ----------------
$$ | 4 2 O O O 1 . |
$$ | X X O . X 3 . |
$$ | O X O O O X X |
$$ | . X X O . O . |
$$ ----------------[/go]

Now, you may think that the concepts of sente and gote don't make much sense on a small board, and you would be right. They are important when there is a question of whether to respond locally is right, or whether you should play somewhere else. On a small board, things are generally all local.