It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:41 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Is this seki?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:04 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 28
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 41
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: calantir
Hello,

I am playing a game on OGS and was wondering if the bottom left corner is potentially seki. Does it depend on the rule system?


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #2 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:18 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
Well, it seems you are linking directly to the game record on OGS, so it is updating with moves.

The move the question is about, I assume, is W296 @ A2

- Is it a potential seki?
Only if black makes a mistake. He didn't.

- Does it depend on the rule system?
No.

- Is it a good move?
Yes! White actually gained a point with that


This post by HermanHiddema was liked by: calantir
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:27 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 653
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 216
Interesting position, it forces black to fill in the fake eye between his two real eyes. If not for the fake eye in the middle of black's group, white's move would not have gained a point!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #4 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:28 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 28
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 41
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: calantir
Thanks! As black, I wasn't sure if I could leave it alone and still count it as territory or not. I was trying to find on sensei's library an explanation of this type of situation but it either wasn't there or I was too dense to see how it applied :scratch:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #5 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:11 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9550
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
calantir wrote:
Thanks! As black, I wasn't sure if I could leave it alone and still count it as territory or not. I was trying to find on sensei's library an explanation of this type of situation but it either wasn't there or I was too dense to see how it applied :scratch:


One explanation is:
1) As observed by the game sequence, black is able to live without seki (and capture the two stones). This is because black had enough outside liberties to capture the stones without putting himself/herself into self-atari. Result: Not seki (two stones are captured).
2) If black opts to "leave it alone", as you considered, after black's outside liberties are filled, it is impossible for black to capture the two white stones without playing self-atari. Result: seki.

Regardless of the ruleset, you don't get to count as captures stones involved in seki. Depending on the ruleset, you can sometimes count eyes in seki.

Therefore, only in option 1, above, does black obtain the points from the two captured stones. If black opts for option 2, above, the white stones are part of the seki and not counted as points.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #6 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:30 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
OT, but the losing play was W288. White does not need to protect the top right corner yet. White should push in at P-05. Black will have no better play than to reply, and that makes a difference of 1 pt. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #7 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:47 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 801
Location: Amsterdam (NL)
Liked others: 353
Was liked: 107
Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
GD Posts: 460
HermanHiddema wrote:

- Is it a good move?
Yes! White actually gained a point with that


No! (IMHO) W throws away the last chance to win the game. If W first fills B's outside liberties, B (8 kyu) may not notice the impending seki. Postponing the move is a good gamble if you know you are losing.
If W wants to be really sneaky he could fill casually all dame in random order checking his watch indifferently until the trap goes off. Don't know about sportmanship though.

_________________
I think I am so I think I am.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #8 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:15 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 28
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 41
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: calantir
Kirby-

So if I understand right, with option 2, I would have four points of territory, counting the white stones as seki, but with option 1, where I fill in my own false eye and then capture the two white stones, I have three points of territory and two points from the captured stones. So option 1 is better.

Bill -

This is my first time posting on the forum, but I have been lurking for a while. I hoped you would have an observation about the endgame. I don't think I've ever played a lower-scoring game with so much emphasis on the endgame. I was lucky to have noticed P-5 first!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Is this seki?
Post #9 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:23 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9550
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
calantir wrote:
Kirby-

So if I understand right, with option 2, I would have four points of territory, counting the white stones as seki, but with option 1, where I fill in my own false eye and then capture the two white stones, I have three points of territory and two points from the captured stones. So option 1 is better.


In some rulesets, seki has no points. So with option 2, black lets it turn into seki and gets no points. Under rulesets where you get points for eyes in seki, black gets one point for his eye that has no white stones. So for option 2, depending on ruleset, you have 0 or 1 point as black.

With option 1, like you said, you get 3 points of territory, plus two for the captured stones.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group