#227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Welcome back! :salute:

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have never seen this 5th line pull back in response to this shoulder hit. I'll admit I don't play 3-3 stones very often anymore, but I used to play them all the time when I first played in middle school - I was very territorial.

The question is - how to proceed? Can I punish this move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Main weakness I see $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't fault :b15:

too much yet. It does do things. I feel there is a weak point at 'a', but that is all I see for now. The main thing it seems to do is make approaching the 4-4 on the right difficult as a pincer works very well for him. However, I do definately see one problem: that ain't sente at all. Time to take the initiative for myself.

Since :b15:

helps the right, I'll approach from the top.

Given my opponent's play thus-far, I think he will pincer. He probably should honestly. He needs to try to use that wall on the left. I could then go for the corner and take whichever invasion joseki he wants. Either I undercut the right or undercut the top.

If he takes the influence toward the right, I get sente to play against his weakness while still there is weakness on the left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 a-d responses not great for B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X C . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X c . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he blocks me the other way then I get more points and he still has weaknesses. Yes, his top could be very nice, but the aji is considerable. Black can't fix it all with 1 move. This is what I will assume my opponent will play. We shall see.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Aji at a-c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O O X b . . . . . X . W X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . c . . . a . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These results seem fine, but I have a more interesting plan in mind. If black pincers, especially if he pincers lightly, I will change direction threatening his corner and undercutting his 5th line stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Double approach! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he pulls back instead of pincering, I will pull back to the star point and prepare to attack his wall or expose the right side weakness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Sort of a, b miai? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X b . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I look forward to reading the comments from him on :b15:

. I would like to know why he felt this joseki/psuedo-joseki wasn't good for him. It seems to work well, building up great potential on the right. Maybe he feared I wouldn't respond to :b17:

? It is a pretty severe threat.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 can be at a or b too $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 6 4 , 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No change in score yet. Black still only has influence, and he is getting more. I'll need to make sure I get some myself - another reason I like the double approach. Either way, influence isn't as big of a deal in a cross game assuming I don't somehow let black get a cross-board moyo. That would be sad.

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:01 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:23 am

I thought this might work out well for black, or a looser pincer to take the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc at the marked stone $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 8 . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . 1 . O 9 3 2 . . | $$ | . . O X . B . . . , . . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:36 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:41 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not going to lie, I have no idea what to do right now. I reach this point in games where the opponent will play a move and I'll draw blanks. I'm pretty sure responding here is necessary. And I thought out some moves. I could:

A. Tenuki
B. Play the move I just did.
C. Play H16

I ultimately decided that tenkuki'ing probably wasn't the best idea here even though I could go for the right side. Plus I'm not entirely sure what approach I'd use. But I imagine :white:

will eventually decide to target the right side, and that's what I'm waiting for. I'm hoping to turn it into a fight, and hopefully slay some of :white:

's stones.

B and C sort of go together here. My idea is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm20 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . B . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To me, this looks decent for :black:

, but I'll have to wait and see.

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:29 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 0 . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:30 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 1 . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:07 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . O 2 . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 1 . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . a . . . b . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My impression is that one of A or B would be a better move for black 9. Otherwise, white's group is under no pressure and can be made solid enough as to be hard to attack with a single move. Once white's group becomes solid, the avalanche result in the top left becomes bad for black, as the wall needs to be used to attack something, not face a strong white position. B takes territory or splits white, leaving white to contend with the wall on the left. A helps protect against the cut/clamp in sente.

In this later diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . O 2 . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 1 . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When black attaches to strengthen the wall, it makes white similarly strong. Black's wall has become a liability and attaching induces white to strengthen his group, making the aji at M17 less worrisome. Black set up an area with relatively strong positions on both sides, making a fight in the area favourable for black, but then chose not to fight, so white gets an easy position and black's previous moves look out of place or inefficient.

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:51 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . O 2 . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 1 3 . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry for the lag. I thought it was your turn for some reason.

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . O 2 . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 1 3 4 O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's okay. Don't worry about it.

This seems like the only move. It is a hane at the head of two stones and it defends against black cutting off and killing my two stones with a hane. Since I took the time to take away black's base I can't very well let him suddenly have one. I want his group to be relatively weak. Additionally, this makes my top side much stronger. I feel like that group is basically alive at this point.

All in all, I'm feeling pretty good.

I've also earned some more points with that move. It is conceivable that black could remove points with a monkey jump, so I'll be conservative in my estimate. I feel the top side there is worth about 6 points right now. However, the descend did take away some corner points since black can kill them with a monkey jump. I think the corner is now only about 8 points. I may get all the points, but I want to be more conservative with these estimates. Overall, that means the score has returned to where I said it was - 20.5 for white (when you include komi).

Since I have no illusions about killing black's group in the center I would like to assess its point value. However, I seem to be able to take away all the points with 1 move by playing another hane around black's two stones on the other side. If black fixes he will then have points there. I think I could say he has 4 from that group if he chooses to fix. Until then, still 0 for black.

So still 20.5 to 0. Here are my point counts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Points inside are if black fixes at 'a' $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . C C . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . C C . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C C O O X a O O C C . . . O . . . . . | $$ | C C O X C C X X O O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | C C O X C C . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C C . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:51 pm

A few comments.

Edit: Unhidden.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since none of the other corners are urgent, my feeling is just to play :b13:

, making a thick wall that needs no extension because it has good eye potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For

my feeling is to play this block. After :b17:

is awkwardly placed, while if Black were to play at 16 it would have a nice relationship with the two Black stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . 4 . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 3 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For

I like the peep, followed by the extension to :w20:

. It is true that the peep foregoes the hane at "a", but that would not fit with making a White base on the top side, anyway.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . 3 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For

I think that Black should play the hanging connection. Yes, it is unfortunate to make it after White has made a base on the top side, instead of before, when Black would have been ready for the attack. Black may have fallen a bit behind, but nothing that can't be made up.

It is important that the wall be a strength rather than a liability.

Life In 19x19

#227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn