Rank Conversion

Come here for discussions about the Tygem go server
moboy78
Dies with sente
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 7:23 am
GD Posts: 0
KGS: moboy78
IGS: moboy78
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by moboy78 »

Kirby wrote:
bleep wrote:If style can contribute to such a situation, then I don't find it unreasonable that Tygem and KGS would as a whole have different styles, and therefore you can see cases where we have players of "type A" who can consistently beat the dominant population of "type B" players playing on Tygem, but also have players of "type C" who can consistently lose to the same group of people.


I agree. I've found that tygem players, at least the ones I've played, seem to not put as much on whole board thinking and strategy as KGS players do and that they end up just fighting and invading. With KGS players, I've found the opposite to be true. Of course, I've seen some exceptions, but by and large I've found the aforementioned description of each server's players to be true. Therefore, I think that if you're decent at direction of play and whole board thinking, but really good at reading and fighting, then your tygem rank might be higher than your KGS rank, with the opposite being true if your specialties are reversed. Hope what I said made sense :).
Pippen
Lives in gote
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:34 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: 2d
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by Pippen »

I am a pretty stable 1d at KGS. Yestersay I played my first game against a 1d-Tygem...and felt like playing a 2-3k at KGS. Even worse: I remember dwyrin/battousai/renshai losing to a 2k and (almost to) a 1d at KGS (he didn't because the 1d played a blunder at the end) 1 year ago and he was/is 5D there at Tygem. IMO there is a definite rank shift between KGS and Tygem, even so gross that I'd find it annoying. Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?
User avatar
leichtloeslich
Lives in gote
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:16 pm
Rank: KGS 4k
GD Posts: 0
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 128 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by leichtloeslich »

Pippen wrote:I am a pretty stable 1d at KGS. Yestersay I played my first game against a 1d-Tygem...and felt like playing a 2-3k at KGS.

That sounds fairly accurate.

I'm KGS 1k/1d and 3d on both tygem and wbaduk, though I don't play much lately.


Pippen wrote:Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?

There aren't yet strong bots available to have anchors across all ranks. Also people may play less serious against bots, or may refuse to play them at all.
(For example, many claim KGS bots and people who play them exclusively have inflated ratings.)
User avatar
oren
Oza
Posts: 2777
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Location: Seattle, WA
Has thanked: 251 times
Been thanked: 549 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by oren »

Pippen wrote:Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?


How does that solve it when every server will think they have the best starting point?
Pippen
Lives in gote
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:34 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: 2d
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by Pippen »

..
Last edited by Pippen on Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pippen
Lives in gote
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:34 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: 2d
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by Pippen »

oren wrote:
Pippen wrote:Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?


How does that solve it when every server will think they have the best starting point?


My - naive - idea would be like: Take Crazystone 2013 on a computer with hardware x. Then let it play regularly on IGS, KGS and Tygem and use ONLY this program as an anchor. Simplified: Who wins against CS would be rated higher as CS and so would who does win against someone who won against CS; people that lose against CS or lose against people that lost to CS would ranked lower and so on (that's just a simplification to show my point). With a system like that I could imagine a system with consistent ranks between servers. Again: I'm a complete greenhorn here, because I'm not a programmer or mathematician, so maybe there are big flaws in my idea. I just would like the idea of a unified rank system and computer programs seem a good way to do that - at least for me.
User avatar
oren
Oza
Posts: 2777
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Location: Seattle, WA
Has thanked: 251 times
Been thanked: 549 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by oren »

Pippen wrote:I just would like the idea of a unified rank system and computer programs seem a good way to do that - at least for me.


I don't see it happening for a variety of reasons. First, the major go servers (Tygem/cyberoro) don't have an interface I know of for adding bots. The second is that the systems and how they account for handicap or rank differences are very varied.

It's easier to just play and let the rank settle it out to whatever. The only point of the rank is to get relatively even games on each server. They can be wildly different but there's no reason to care.
uPWarrior
Lives with ko
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:59 pm
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by uPWarrior »

Pippen wrote:
oren wrote:
Pippen wrote:Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?


How does that solve it when every server will think they have the best starting point?


My - naive - idea would be like: Take Crazystone 2013 on a computer with hardware x. Then let it play regularly on IGS, KGS and Tygem and use ONLY this program as an anchor. Simplified: Who wins against CS would be rated higher as CS and so would who does win against someone who won against CS; people that lose against CS or lose against people that lost to CS would ranked lower and so on (that's just a simplification to show my point). With a system like that I could imagine a system with consistent ranks between servers. Again: I'm a complete greenhorn here, because I'm not a programmer or mathematician, so maybe there are big flaws in my idea. I just would like the idea of a unified rank system and computer programs seem a good way to do that - at least for me.


The big flaw in your idea: What is the correct rank for Crazystone? KGS will say X, Tygem will say Y and guess what, they are both right.
Pippen
Lives in gote
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:34 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: 2d
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by Pippen »

uPWarrior wrote:[

The big flaw in your idea: What is the correct rank for Crazystone? KGS will say X, Tygem will say Y and guess what, they are both right.


My thinking is: Because CS will be played on a fixed hardware and time setting on all go servers, it will have a certain equal strength - everywhere. If one calls this strength "1d" and uses it as an anchor then all servers should get the same ranking.
User avatar
leichtloeslich
Lives in gote
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:16 pm
Rank: KGS 4k
GD Posts: 0
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 128 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by leichtloeslich »

Pippen wrote:I just would like the idea of a unified rank system and computer programs seem a good way to do that - at least for me.

Hm, I don't really care as long as the ranking system does its job: match players of approx. equal strength against each other.
Go strength isn't a 1-dimensional quantity anyway, so I'd try not to attach too much meaning to a single number.

Your idea seems to bring with it a lot of problems while fixing none. (Ranking systems don't have to be comparable, just consistent within themselves.)
uPWarrior
Lives with ko
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:59 pm
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by uPWarrior »

Pippen wrote:
uPWarrior wrote:[

The big flaw in your idea: What is the correct rank for Crazystone? KGS will say X, Tygem will say Y and guess what, they are both right.


My thinking is: Because CS will be played on a fixed hardware and time setting on all go servers, it will have a certain equal strength - everywhere. If one calls this strength "1d" and uses it as an anchor then all servers should get the same ranking.


The first part already happens. The issue is that there are several "one"s calling this strength different things.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by Boidhre »

Pippen wrote:
oren wrote:
Pippen wrote:Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?


How does that solve it when every server will think they have the best starting point?


My - naive - idea would be like: Take Crazystone 2013 on a computer with hardware x. Then let it play regularly on IGS, KGS and Tygem and use ONLY this program as an anchor. Simplified: Who wins against CS would be rated higher as CS and so would who does win against someone who won against CS; people that lose against CS or lose against people that lost to CS would ranked lower and so on (that's just a simplification to show my point). With a system like that I could imagine a system with consistent ranks between servers. Again: I'm a complete greenhorn here, because I'm not a programmer or mathematician, so maybe there are big flaws in my idea. I just would like the idea of a unified rank system and computer programs seem a good way to do that - at least for me.


Question (and I think interesting): Would Crazystone be the same strength when giving or taking handicaps as even? I know humans often aren't, especially in the kyu ranks, but would Crazystone have the same win rate against players 2 stones stronger than it as players that can play it evenly?
skydyr
Oza
Posts: 2495
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 am
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Location: DC
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by skydyr »

uPWarrior wrote:
Pippen wrote:
uPWarrior wrote:[

The big flaw in your idea: What is the correct rank for Crazystone? KGS will say X, Tygem will say Y and guess what, they are both right.


My thinking is: Because CS will be played on a fixed hardware and time setting on all go servers, it will have a certain equal strength - everywhere. If one calls this strength "1d" and uses it as an anchor then all servers should get the same ranking.


The first part already happens. The issue is that there are several "one"s calling this strength different things.


Also, the way that the rating systems work on the different servers, they may not even use anchors as such. Tygem, for example, looks at your w/l record for the last 20 or so games only.
zack
Beginner
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:39 am
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by zack »

1. Go strength is fairly universal.
Meaning: If you've developed your skills at go, where ever you go, you will be playing at similar strength, and you can perceive other players as stronger or weaker than you're. When comparing your subjective experiences of different opponents with other players experiences of the same opponents, there should be a strong rank correlation, which can be hypothesized to be explained by difference in skill.

2. Go strength is based on several components
Meaning: Your skill of the game is not made from a single factor, but it has several factors which create a fairly static average performance. For an example your memory functions when performing long reading exercises can be compared with other players, your ability to benefit from time per move may have a difference in comparison to your opponent. As another example, you may have quicker executive functions while reading. You may perform an interference series at quick speed. There are lots of factors. I don't claim to know which ones matter most. The claim here is that there are several of them.

3. Go strength has a fairly low degree of opposition
Explanation: Your strength components oppositon to the components of other players don't have a strong degree of opposition, your expectancy of winning is rather derived from your universal stregth, than the opposition of your strength components and opponent's strength components, but these factors modulate your winning expectancy.

Sidepoint: This is part of strength universality claim, as the inverse of universal strength is local strength, strength based entirely on circumstances. So strength is fairly universal and has a low degree of opposition. But it's still worth a distinct point.

If there were competing schools of strategy/tactics, then perhaps there could be a stronger degree opposition, but that's not really the case, as far as I understand. However it's not that the seperate schools would simply induce opposition, rather it's both, if there were opposition, it would create a logical platform to support competing schools, so their absence is evidence against high degree of strength opposition. The components themselves may have some degree of opposition, but it may blend with the players. (You should think of playing 9x9 or 19x19 as an example but they're not really the same game)

But still some players will be better at life and death, others will better at strategy, wholeboard thinking. The relative value of this components changes the opposition. Players also optimize to their own strongpoints with their own play, even if they would be bad at it. As as sidepoint, the components maybe correlated with each other, so there's factor which causes lots of components (like high overall or general intelligence). Notice that the flocked components reduce he effect of opposition instead of increasing it.

4. Go strength is quite strongly uniform
Meaning: That if there is a difference between players strength, it can be quantified in such a way, that you can find a consistency between different ranks. This is what it means in a more concrete example: Let's generate a player A with static strength. Then let's reach to the pool of players, and find one who will have a 80% winning rate against player A. Let's call him player B. Now let's use the same value and find player C, who can beat player B at 80% winning rate. It is obvious that these players can be found, but what's not obvious that if A,B,C and have this relationship, then we can estimate the winning rate between players A and C. That is what uniform strength means in this context. So the claim is Go strength is fairly uniform, which allows the possibility consistent ranking systems from low to high strength. However there is, as far as I know, asymmetry. Outcomes become less random as players get stronger. This expectation can also be derived with the following interference: If really low strength means making lots of mistakes (closer to randomness), and really high strength means making very accurate and closer to optimal moves, then the degree of randomness decreases as players get stronger. This is hugely important because it changes the skill distance between player A and B in respect to B and C, even if they exist, which also means different ratios for A and C.

However the game of go is capable of supporting the handicap system fairly well. This is strong evidence for stongly uniform go strength, but not for absolute uniformity, which is in my opinion practically impossible.

Time as factor
Playing the game with different time settings is hard to fit into this perspective, because in my opinion, the game is not the same if you change the time settings, but it's complicated. And right now I don't feel like trying to analyze this any further. :D

Alright these are the main claims about go. Now to ranking systems. Some ranking systems may be more flawed than others in that they're less good at really estimating players winning expectancy or finding the most appropriate relative rank for a player. They may have these different aspects of go strength incorrectly included in their mathematics, which may cause slight distortions in the ranks. For an example you might find that there's a longer distance between 3d and 4d on some server than there is on some other server. Or you might find that there's a tiny percentual difference between winning changes with handicap stones in relation to otherwise.

In addition to this playerbases are different. Tygem is rather an asian server. Go is also a more popular game in the eastern countries. That means the player population can be expected to be less specialized at go, as in less a niche group (not necessarily strength-correlated niche) and players might be more casual. This might translate into the strengths of the playerbase. Even the time of day may be a factor.

It might be hard to directly compare different servers even if they had identical ranking systems. However they don't have identical ranking systems, which makes the comparisons even harder. Rank labels are not equivalent to player strength, but you could assume they are strongly correlated, but not by labels with the same name. So you could make a general statement like the ones made in this thread, that (with DAN ranks) KGS rank = Tygem Rank + 2, so 1 DAN kgs would be 3 Dan tygem. You can expect this claim to be somewhat consistent, if it's based on collected data, but you should expect some kind of error margin, which may appear in the form of distorted uniformity so you might not find the same distance between the ranks at all levels (like high dans might have a longer distance between them), or simply congruence (like low 1 dan, high 2 dan) if you're not making claims more specifically.
moboy78
Dies with sente
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 7:23 am
GD Posts: 0
KGS: moboy78
IGS: moboy78
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Rank Conversion

Post by moboy78 »

zack wrote:1. Go strength is fairly universal.
Meaning: If you've developed your skills at go, where ever you go, you will be playing at similar strength, and you can perceive other players as stronger or weaker than you're. When comparing your subjective experiences of different opponents with other players experiences of the same opponents, there should be a strong rank correlation, which can be hypothesized to be explained by difference in skill.

2. Go strength is based on several components
Meaning: Your skill of the game is not made from a single factor, but it has several factors which create a fairly static average performance. For an example your memory functions when performing long reading exercises can be compared with other players, your ability to benefit from time per move may have a difference in comparison to your opponent. As another example, you may have quicker executive functions while reading. You may perform an interference series at quick speed. There are lots of factors. I don't claim to know which ones matter most. The claim here is that there are several of them.

3. Go strength has a fairly low degree of opposition
Explanation: Your strength components oppositon to the components of other players don't have a strong degree of opposition, your expectancy of winning is rather derived from your universal stregth, than the opposition of your strength components and opponent's strength components, but these factors modulate your winning expectancy.

Sidepoint: This is part of strength universality claim, as the inverse of universal strength is local strength, strength based entirely on circumstances. So strength is fairly universal and has a low degree of opposition. But it's still worth a distinct point.

If there were competing schools of strategy/tactics, then perhaps there could be a stronger degree opposition, but that's not really the case, as far as I understand. However it's not that the seperate schools would simply induce opposition, rather it's both, if there were opposition, it would create a logical platform to support competing schools, so their absence is evidence against high degree of strength opposition. The components themselves may have some degree of opposition, but it may blend with the players. (You should think of playing 9x9 or 19x19 as an example but they're not really the same game)

But still some players will be better at life and death, others will better at strategy, wholeboard thinking. The relative value of this components changes the opposition. Players also optimize to their own strongpoints with their own play, even if they would be bad at it. As as sidepoint, the components maybe correlated with each other, so there's factor which causes lots of components (like high overall or general intelligence). Notice that the flocked components reduce he effect of opposition instead of increasing it.

4. Go strength is quite strongly uniform
Meaning: That if there is a difference between players strength, it can be quantified in such a way, that you can find a consistency between different ranks. This is what it means in a more concrete example: Let's generate a player A with static strength. Then let's reach to the pool of players, and find one who will have a 80% winning rate against player A. Let's call him player B. Now let's use the same value and find player C, who can beat player B at 80% winning rate. It is obvious that these players can be found, but what's not obvious that if A,B,C and have this relationship, then we can estimate the winning rate between players A and C. That is what uniform strength means in this context. So the claim is Go strength is fairly uniform, which allows the possibility consistent ranking systems from low to high strength. However there is, as far as I know, asymmetry. Outcomes become less random as players get stronger. This expectation can also be derived with the following interference: If really low strength means making lots of mistakes (closer to randomness), and really high strength means making very accurate and closer to optimal moves, then the degree of randomness decreases as players get stronger. This is hugely important because it changes the skill distance between player A and B in respect to B and C, even if they exist, which also means different ratios for A and C.

However the game of go is capable of supporting the handicap system fairly well. This is strong evidence for stongly uniform go strength, but not for absolute uniformity, which is in my opinion practically impossible.

Time as factor
Playing the game with different time settings is hard to fit into this perspective, because in my opinion, the game is not the same if you change the time settings, but it's complicated. And right now I don't feel like trying to analyze this any further. :D

Alright these are the main claims about go. Now to ranking systems. Some ranking systems may be more flawed than others in that they're less good at really estimating players winning expectancy or finding the most appropriate relative rank for a player. They may have these different aspects of go strength incorrectly included in their mathematics, which may cause slight distortions in the ranks. For an example you might find that there's a longer distance between 3d and 4d on some server than there is on some other server. Or you might find that there's a tiny percentual difference between winning changes with handicap stones in relation to otherwise.

In addition to this playerbases are different. Tygem is rather an asian server. Go is also a more popular game in the eastern countries. That means the player population can be expected to be less specialized at go, as in less a niche group (not necessarily strength-correlated niche) and players might be more casual. This might translate into the strengths of the playerbase. Even the time of day may be a factor.

It might be hard to directly compare different servers even if they had identical ranking systems. However they don't have identical ranking systems, which makes the comparisons even harder. Rank labels are not equivalent to player strength, but you could assume they are strongly correlated, but not by labels with the same name. So you could make a general statement like the ones made in this thread, that (with DAN ranks) KGS rank = Tygem Rank + 2, so 1 DAN kgs would be 3 Dan tygem. You can expect this claim to be somewhat consistent, if it's based on collected data, but you should expect some kind of error margin, which may appear in the form of distorted uniformity so you might not find the same distance between the ranks at all levels (like high dans might have a longer distance between them), or simply congruence (like low 1 dan, high 2 dan) if you're not making claims more specifically.


Mind=just blown :o
Post Reply