Is KGS developement dead or just slow?

[PaperTiger]

2. Bill has an actual job. The job market in IT in the US now is difficult. If Bill were to quit paid employment in order to work on KGS for free, it's a financial sacrifice for him and there's certainly no guaranntee that he'd get a job equivalent to the one he has now. Why would he do this?

Indeed, which is why I don't see anybody asking him to quit his job and work on KGS full time.

For the people who are complaining about KGS' functionality, there is an option. Work together to identify a financial model that would provide Bill with the time and financial support required to work on KGS full-time.

Assuming wms works as a senior software developer in the US, he's probably making over a $100k a year and has reasonable job security while supporting a family. There's no way the tiny KGS community will be able to match that.

Another option is he could spend probably less than an hour and fix the sound problem, and that would stop many of the complaints of total abandonment. If he can't do that, he should just outsource minor maintenance like he does admin duties. He would still own the server. Alternatively, I agree with Kirby, people should keep on complaining and migrating elsewhere.

[cdybeijing]

Folks, it's all moot. We've heard this going round and round in circles for a couple of years now.

In less than one year, the Western go community will have completed it's migration to OGS/Nova. There are already 300-400 users online at any given point in time, compared to around a 1000 on KGS, and OGS isn't currently getting any of the Japanese, Chinese or Russian traffic.

[Javaness2]

You can follow KGS development here https://plus.google.com/108736506961432085848

Off Topic:
I think established rivals such as wbaduk , tygem , IGS - are far more popular than OGS in terms of live play. Most users online on OGS are there for Correspondence play (at a guess). You can observe the popularity of OGS as a live play server here: http://online-go.com/observeGames - highest figure I saw was 2.

[Pippen]

Again: Let Kaya's downfall be a warning to all of those with too high ambitions.

Why? Because one of the owners got a job offer and stopped working on the project?

Yes. WMS also had/has a job and didn't quit on KGS. He has proved endurance. What's the value of high ambitions on no reality grounds?

[SoDesuNe]

It does not matter with which level of ambition you start, to make a Go server work you need the same endurance and tenacity anyway, I assume. High ambition might function as a motivation, low ambition does not have any function as far as I can see - how can you ever pull through hard times when you have no drive to excel at something?
Lastly you do not quit a project solely because of high ambitions, respectively when you can't meet them. More often it's the simple combination of time(-management) and money.

[Bantari]

Again: Let Kaya's downfall be a warning to all of those with too high ambitions.

Why? Because one of the owners got a job offer and stopped working on the project? Having high ambitions is admirable. What practically gets accomplished is what makes a difference, but this usually starts with some sort of dream.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Its not about ambition with Kaya, is about having a bad bad business model (or not having one at all.) Since the Kaya development was financed (at least partly) by donations - what did it matter that one of the owners got a job? Didn't they *quit* their jobs precisely for the reason to work on Kaya?!? Didn't they ask for donations - and received them - precisely for the reasons of not needing a job?!?

A dream is for those who sleep.
When you really need to accomplish something, you need to be awake.

[Bantari]

I sense a disunity on the side of KGS bashers here.
On one side is - the server is dead, or its just routine maintenance to be done, or its a finished product.
On the other side is - people are screaming for new features and new functionalities constantly to the point they will leave to play somewhere else unless WMS delivers.

Can't have it both ways.

[Javaness2]

Didn't they *quit* their jobs precisely for the reason to work on Kaya?!? Didn't they ask for donations - and received them - precisely for the reasons of not needing a job?!?

I think they were recently graduateed students with no job who wanted to work on a project that looked impressive whilst seeking a job... but I could be completely wrong.

What do you think about cows by the way? Should KGS have cows?

[Bantari]

As part of the above - it has been diligently worked on and maintained over the years (present hiatus notwithstanding)

Let's get real here. Serious development beyond tinkering stopped many, many years ago. Saying it has been "diligently" worked on in even the last 5 years is a joke. About the only area where significant effort has been put into has been the Android client, and that's a paid app. Getting back to the level where basic issues like sound are fixed would be a big improvement and get back to where the server has been for quite some time.

Ok, fine, 5 years. So? KGS exists much longer than that, even if you as KGS user don't.

My point is as follows:

• tremendous amount of work has been done to bring the server to the point when maintenance has stalled and the community was already big and thriving at that point.
• I hope we can agree that a lot of damage is being done to KGS by the fact that maintenance stalled for so long - this thread being just an example
• thus - you (or whoever) cannot say KGS has been 'functioning just fine with such model of no maintenance'
• what's more - it is possible a lot more work needs to be done right now to recover from the damage - work which might go far beyond mere bug fix and routine maintenance - thus whoever would take on KGS maintenance now needs to be prepared to do such work and not just fix the silly sound issue people are talking about so much.

It is possible that KGS will not survive this situation, I have no clue.
So, if you do have a list of programmers willing and eager to run such project for free for many years, and do it much better than WMS (I take it you are not happy with the way he does things) - then roll them out and get them started working on a new server which can replace KGS once it goes belly-up.

Personally - I am not willing to do that, and so I rather give KGS a chance and see what happens. If it dies, it dies, if it survives, so much the better. I can always go back to playing in a real club.

[Bantari]

In particular, I see no valid reason whats-o-ever not to have the client protocol public. (Most of the features people wish for are client-side.)

IGS has an open protocol. IGS client sucks.
How many people do you see working on a new IGS client?!?

And how many people are upset because they have been using some half-baked IGS client which they eventually learned to like in spite of all the bugs and shortcomings - and which got broken and discarded because of the developer moving on to a more interesting hobby? I've been there, done that, and have the t-shirt to prove it. So for now I much rather stick with KGS model here, even without the sound fixed - at least I don't need to switch clients every few months, going from bad to worse, like on IGS.

The bottom line is - we have servers with open protocols and servers with closed ones.
When somebody has an itch to write a client, there you go, knock yourself out!

Personally - I would be more interested in a good SGF editor for mac, if you need a project to work on and can't think of anything by yourself.

[Bantari]

Didn't they *quit* their jobs precisely for the reason to work on Kaya?!? Didn't they ask for donations - and received them - precisely for the reasons of not needing a job?!?

I think they were recently graduateed students with no job who wanted to work on a project that looked impressive whilst seeking a job... but I could be completely wrong.

This is not how I remember it - I think they actually quite their full-time jobs to work on Kaya.
Too busy to look for the quote now. One of the early Kaya threads, when I was asking for business model before making a donation.

What do you think about cows by the way? Should KGS have cows?

I like burgers... does that count?

[leichtloeslich]

So for now I much rather stick with KGS model here, even without the sound fixed - at least I don't need to switch clients every few months, going from bad to worse, like on IGS.

I'm sorry, I have trouble seeing the actual argument here. How does making the client protocol open stop you from using CGoban 3 for the remainder of your life?

And btw, if you feel uneasy answering this in less than 100 words, maybe that's an indication that you don't really have an argument.

[Bantari]

So for now I much rather stick with KGS model here, even without the sound fixed - at least I don't need to switch clients every few months, going from bad to worse, like on IGS.

I'm sorry, I have trouble seeing the actual argument here. How does making the client protocol open stop you from using CGoban 3 for the remainder of your life?

It just makes no sense for me, as an imaginary developer, to open the protocol and say 'here, write clients' while still spending my time doing/maintaining my own.

And btw, if you feel uneasy answering this in less than 100 words, maybe that's an indication that you don't really have an argument.

Personally, I rather look at quality of text then quantity of words, but lets agree to disagree here, we each have a preference.
I just have to remember when talking to you I have to use small words, big letters, and not too much text as not to confuse you.

[xed_over]

My old program doesn't work correctly anymore, since I updated my OS. It still works mostly, but just has a few minor annoyances. Nothing that really prevents general usage.

The company that wrote it won't fix these minor annoyances, and won't open up their source code to outside developers, even though they give away their program for free. I don't understand why this company won't give away their source code, or sell it to someone else.

Although, I hear that they are working on a newer, more modern version that will work better with these newer OS upgrades.

Maybe I shouldn't have waited a little longer before upgrading from Windows 3.1

dead horse

dead horse.gif (129.04 KiB) Viewed 11355 times

[PaperTiger]

Ok, fine, 5 years. So?

So you were wrong. There has not been a diligent effort for many years, but it cruised along. So all it takes to get back to that model is to have one or a few volunteers able to maintain the code, and it doesn't need a big commitment.

My point is as follows:

Your "point" meanders like a river, changing whenever pesky obstacles like contradictory facts get in the way.

KGS exists much longer than that, even if you as KGS user don't.

I joined in 2002.

tremendous amount of work has been done to bring the server to the point when maintenance has stalled and the community was already big and thriving at that point.

Sure, and wms gets all the credit for that. But to get KGS back to cruising mode where basic functionality isn't broken doesn't require that effort.

I hope we can agree that a lot of damage is being done to KGS by the fact that maintenance stalled for so long - this thread being just an example

It's been dinged, and the perception is bad, but the actual damage in terms of players isn't that bad. KGS had been running with a peak number of users of about 2000 for a long time. That has dropped off to about 1800, so I'd say a rough estimate of a 10% loss is fair.

thus - you (or whoever) cannot say KGS has been 'functioning just fine with such model of no maintenance'

Don't use quotes for your inaccurate, made up paraphrase. To restate the original position using actual quotes:

Bantari: "I understand there are a lot of programmers out there who would like to look at the code, tinker a little, and never look at it again - but I don't think KGS (or any server) could survive such model."

PaperTiger: "You're wrong. KGS has survived on an even worse model for years (near abandonment), to the point where a basic feature, sound, has stopped working. Even if wms just let somebody in to fix the occasional bug the situation would be much improved."

what's more - it is possible a lot more work needs to be done right now to recover from the damage - work which might go far beyond mere bug fix and routine maintenance - thus whoever would take on KGS maintenance now needs to be prepared to do such work and not just fix the silly sound issue people are talking about so much.

Or maybe it would just go back to the way it was, with the usual grumbling about lack of new development, but not the backlash of such a basic feature being broken for what, about 2 years now?

It is possible that KGS will not survive this situation, I have no clue.
So, if you do have a list of programmers willing and eager to run such project for free for many years, and do it much better than WMS (I take it you are not happy with the way he does things) - then roll them out and get them started working on a new server which can replace KGS once it goes belly-up.

False dilemma. I'd prefer wms either take an hour and fix the sound bug himself or just hand over maintenance to somebody who can. Given that the compiled client code was hacked to fix it by somebody means enough people care that somebody could be found for such routine maintenance.