Is KGS developement dead or just slow?

[Bantari]

Ok, fine, 5 years. So?

So you were wrong. There has not been a diligent effort for many years, but it cruised along. So all it takes to get back to that model is to have one or a few volunteers able to maintain the code, and it doesn't need a big commitment.

Since we are where we are, this model is obviously not working.
Or are you happy with how things are going?

Oh... I see what you are saying...
KGS was running fine for the past X years when WMS was doing just routine maintenance, and you were happy with that. And now that he stopped maintaining it - you just want to go back to the 'cruising' years, right?

Well, ok, sure, its a viewpoint, but a rather naive one. The situation we are right now is probably *because* of the years of cruising. I claim that to reverse it now you cannot just start tinkering with the code here and there, go back to the neglect we have before - I bet there is a more serious changes needed due to the time of 'cruising'.

I would not be surprised now if it was easier to write a new client from scratch (as WMS is doing, I hear) than to fix/maintain the old one.
But unless WMS speaks, we will not know, and you might well be right - 'just cruising' might be a good option.

In either case - weather we wait for the new client, or WMS gives the code to somebody else and we have to wait until that person looks into it (which might take even longer) - we have to wait or play somewhere else. This is what years of 'cruising' give you, and I rather wait and do it right than just cruise for another X years and do even more damage.

As for the rest of your post - I think you are just talking in circles.
But I will read it again later, maybe I will make some sense to it.

[leichtloeslich]

Personally, I rather look at quality of text then quantity of words, but lets agree to disagree here, we each have a preference.

Quality is precisely my point. People who get defensive and have no arguments often tend to write big essays on various issues while somehow avoiding the main points in question. I'm sure you have seen this kind of behaviour in others.

I just have to remember when talking to you I have to use small words, big letters, and not too much text as not to confuse you.

Personal attacks fall into the same category of defensive behaviour that's mostly employed by people who feel themselves on the losing end of an argument.

It just makes no sense for me, as an imaginary developer, to open the protocol and say 'here, write clients' while still spending my time doing/maintaining my own.

Why not? Worst case scenario: somebody writes a better client, which should benefit the server.

[HermanHiddema]

What I said is true. I said significant effort, to correspond with Bantari's "diligent", not just "any work". And I can back it up, because wms helpfully publishes his changelogs online:

http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2007.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2008.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2009.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2010.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog.txt (2011-present)

Notice the dropoff from 2007 to 2008? (Yes, you'll have to click to see.) In 2007 he was average updates about every 3 months. In 2008 he had a gap between releases in February and December in which no releases were made, and it's not like December's release made up for it by including a ton of changes.

The last update was in Mar of 2012, and was an Android-only update.

https://plus.google.com/108736506961432085848/posts

[Pippen]

I think the pure fact that WMS does not give the sourcecode away, e.g. for developers that may build a parallel go-server that has nothing to do with KGS, tells you he has plans with KGS for the future. He never did quit, even we he slowed down now. I remember once MoyoGo from F. de Groot. It started like kaya, with a lot of ambition and prospect and it looked good for 2 years and then the developer got tired of it (for several reasons) and didn't continue the project. That what really kills such projects, not a slow-down phase.

[PaperTiger]

Oh... I see what you are saying...
KGS was running fine for the past X years when WMS was doing just routine maintenance, and you were happy with that. And now that he stopped maintaining it - you just want to go back to the 'cruising' years, right?

I wouldn't say I was happy with just the routine maintenance, but it wasn't that bad, either, and it was much better than having such a glaring feature break and be ignored for 2 years.

Well, ok, sure, its a viewpoint, but a rather naive one. The situation we are right now is probably *because* of the years of cruising. I claim that to reverse it now you cannot just start tinkering with the code here and there, go back to the neglect we have before - I bet there is a more serious changes needed due to the time of 'cruising'.

The situation we are in right now, where basic functionality has stopped working, is because he stopped doing routine maintenance. Full stop. Having somebody, anybody, spend an hour to fix the sound bug would be a big improvement. Full stop.

I would not be surprised now if it was easier to write a new client from scratch (as WMS is doing, I hear) than to fix/maintain the old one.

That's nonsense. It would take less than one hour for wms to fix the sound problem. It's just a matter of changing from one API to another. Somebody already did it in the byte code. wms has the source.

[hyperpape]

Personally, I rather look at quality of text then quantity of words, but lets agree to disagree here, we each have a preference.

Quality is precisely my point. People who get defensive and have no arguments often tend to write big essays on various issues while somehow avoiding the main points in question. I'm sure you have seen this kind of behaviour in others.

I just have to remember when talking to you I have to use small words, big letters, and not too much text as not to confuse you.

Personal attacks fall into the same category of defensive behaviour that's mostly employed by people who feel themselves on the losing end of an argument.

These are probably both oversimplifications.

Short enough for you?

[duckweed]

That's nonsense. It would take less than one hour for wms to fix the sound problem. It's just a matter of changing from one API to another. Somebody already did it in the byte code. wms has the source.

I would really like someone to pinpoint the class and method in the Java API that plays wave files in Java 6 and not Java 7 for me.

I have not been able to find one.

[Bantari]

Personally, I rather look at quality of text then quantity of words, but lets agree to disagree here, we each have a preference.

Quality is precisely my point. People who get defensive and have no arguments often tend to write big essays on various issues while somehow avoiding the main points in question. I'm sure you have seen this kind of behaviour in others.

Sure, I have. But it is a simple and common logical fallacy to assume the inverse. I have also seen long essays which make excellent arguments. This is why it pays to read rather than make wild assumptions and generalizations and try to limit people to arbitrary number of words or 'they have no argument.'

I just have to remember when talking to you I have to use small words, big letters, and not too much text as not to confuse you.

Personal attacks fall into the same category of defensive behaviour that's mostly employed by people who feel themselves on the losing end of an argument.

Oh great... so now if I use more than 100 words I have no argument AND if I use less but say something you dislike I have no argument neither?
I took your dismissal of what I say as personal attack on me, based on nothing else but a number of words.
Really funny.

Well, no matter. This is really off-topic here.

It just makes no sense for me, as an imaginary developer, to open the protocol and say 'here, write clients' while still spending my time doing/maintaining my own.

Why not? Worst case scenario: somebody writes a better client, which should benefit the server.

Well, write one, then talk.
Its always that elusive 'somebody' to do the work.

Anyways - WMS explained many many many many many times why he does not want to allow that and why he does not believe it will benefit his server. I think his is not the only way, but from his perspective it makes sense. Not sure what else to add. And I said quite a few times that if somebody has an itch writing a client - nothing is stopping them, knock yourself out.

I am really not sure what you are trying to accomplish by this argument here.

[Kirby]

Oh great... so now if I use more than 100 words I have no argument AND if I use less but say something you dislike I have no argument neither?
I took your dismissal of what I say as personal attack on me, based on nothing else but a number of words.
Really funny.

It's not that 100+ word arguments are automatically invalid. It's just that, if you have a real handle on what is true, it might be possible to express the idea concisely.

To me, wordy arguments are a bit like aji keshi moves in go - it's not to the point, and you're destroying potential. Just play the moves that are necessary.

That being said, I have a lot of aji keshi in my posts here - probably more than most.

[jug]

WMS explained many [...] times why he does not want to allow that and why he does not believe it will benefit his server.

I knew wms don't want to open the KGS sources, but the reasons escaped me. So can you please enlighten me?

[hyperpape]

A recent link: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6350&p=111241&hilit=kgs+open+source#p111241, and an old rec.games.go thread where wms lays out reasons in detail: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... D9x6Bk8gEJ.

Basically, wms wants his protocol entirely under his control, so that he can make changes freely, without having to worry about whether other clients are in sync.

[Kirby]

A recent link: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6350&p=111241&hilit=kgs+open+source#p111241, and an old rec.games.go thread where wms lays out reasons in detail: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... D9x6Bk8gEJ.

Basically, wms wants his protocol entirely under his control, so that he can make changes freely, without having to worry about whether other clients are in sync.

At the time of the rec.games.go posting, it appears that the agument about making changes freely is more applicable, since he states that he makes changes on a regular basis to the protocol. If this is no longer the case, perhaps this is no longer much of an argument.

What seemed more relevant to the current situation was his argument that he would get questions from developers if he opened the protocol, and he did not want to deal with these questions (as he argues in the last paragraph).

Personally, I don't see a reason that he would be obligated to answer protocol-related questions if he made it public, as he perhaps receives just as many questions about why he didn't make the protocol open in the first place

Oh well!

[Dusk Eagle]

That's nonsense. It would take less than one hour for wms to fix the sound problem. It's just a matter of changing from one API to another. Somebody already did it in the byte code. wms has the source.

I would really like someone to pinpoint the class and method in the Java API that plays wave files in Java 6 and not Java 7 for me.

I have not been able to find one.

I have decompiled my own copy of kgs and fixed the stone sounds myself. It really is a simple change. If I was at my computer I could tell you precisely what class doesn't work in java 7. If I remember I'll do it later.