How to deal with invasions

[alejo]

Yesterday I played a game against a KGS 3 kyu. I though the fuseki favoured me, specially on the left side. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to kill the invading stone or gain profit by attacking it. In the end, I made some silly mistakes after failing to kill white...

Would someone enlighten me about how should I have attacked it?? If it's not killable, how should I have got some benefit while attacking?

Thank you

PD: Should I use profit or benefit? (I'm not a native English speaker)

[EdLee]

[alejo]

Thank you for your comments and variations. However, I cannot find a good continuation for you suggestion ...
Definitely is one of my common silly mistakes, such as move 143

[EdLee]

The idea of the and variations is to control the center (and maybe profit the right side).
Just an idea -- I could be wrong.

[mitsun]

I think you need more practice fighting. When you have a local advantage, do not let your opponent off by playing mild defensive moves, instead look for a strong attack. Examples from the game:

challenges B to fight or submit to losing a fair amount of territory. You are very strong outside -- much stronger than the normal joseki -- yet you chose to defend. Next game pick a fight!

makes good defensive shape, but W was not threatening anything. Rather, W was defending against the possibility of B pressing at H15 to expand the B moyo. You let W get away with this in sente.

is another overplay, deep within B influence. You must punish W for such impudence! Your first thought should be something like E10 or F11, rather than C11 which is purely defensive. E10 would go for an outright capture, ending the game, but requires reading. F11 aims to drive W downward, letting B naturally strengthen the two stones there. With pressing moves like E5 available, B should get a good result.

is horribly submissive. You have to look for something better. If you see nothing useful now, then just tenuki and wait for a better opportunity. However, in the actual game, what happens if B blocks at H3, then plays atari underneath at J2 after W cuts? It looks like B gets quite a nice squeeze (giving up the J4 stone).

is a good attack, pushing the weak W group toward the B strength above. But it is difficult to kill a single large group like this. To strengthen the attack, or to get compensation elsewhere, you additional leverage, which you can get here by pressing against the strong W group above. and are too soft, as they have no effect on the upper W group. Consider pressing directly at G15. If W hanes, you hane back, then keep pushing to get additional forcing moves, after which K11 becomes very severe, maybe even fatal. (This whole sequence might be even more powerful after first exchanging K11 for J12 or H13, but you would have to read that W could not connect with H14.) If W ignores G15, then H16 is a strong follow-up, likely forcing W to crawl along the second line while B builds center strength. Meanwhile, the W center group remains weak.

looks like you are going for the kill. Good, finally a really strong attack! Both sides made mistakes in the fight, but no matter, this is the attitude you need. Some notes on tactics: Could block at L13? (Can W do anything outside?) How about at K15? (Can W save this stone?) If W is going to live anyway, :b101: at J15 leaves the outside B position connected and extremely strong. This much thickness should provide enough territory to win.

:b119: should be at N16 for safety. Killing the two W cutting stones would be enough to win. Live and let die.

NB) In casual English, you can profit (or gain profit) from a profitable attack, which provides either direct profit or indirect benefits. It would sound a little strange to say you can benefit (or gain benefits) from a beneficial attack, but we would all get the idea . Your English is quite good.

[alejo]

I think you need more practice fighting. When you have a local advantage, do not let your opponent off by playing mild defensive moves, instead look for a strong attack. Examples from the game:

challenges B to fight or submit to losing a fair amount of territory. You are very strong outside -- much stronger than the normal joseki -- yet you chose to defend. Next game pick a fight!

makes good defensive shape, but W was not threatening anything. Rather, W was defending against the possibility of B pressing at H15 to expand the B moyo. You let W get away with this in sente.

I've recently climbed over the 6k wall, and reached 4-5k. This was my second game against a 3k so I was too scaried to play certain moves or my rival playing them. Therefore, I played too submissively here.
On the previous review, other users pointed out my lack of sente control, specially during fuseki. Believe it or not, I try to think of it while playing...

is another overplay, deep within B influence. You must punish W for such impudence! Your first thought should be something like E10 or F11, rather than C11 which is purely defensive. E10 would go for an outright capture, ending the game, but requires reading. F11 aims to drive W downward, letting B naturally strengthen the two stones there. With pressing moves like E5 available, B should get a good result.

This was the move that annoyed me the most and didn't not how to handle it. F10 was the move I was looking for. Thank you.
Since I couldn't come up with E5 either, I played C5...

is horribly submissive. You have to look for something better. If you see nothing useful now, then just tenuki and wait for a better opportunity. However, in the actual game, what happens if B blocks at H3, then plays atari underneath at J2 after W cuts? It looks like B gets quite a nice squeeze (giving up the J4 stone).

I read H3 and I thought that giving up the J4 stone wouldn't be a good idea... Certainly, is a horrible move. Agreed. However, I didn't consider the tenuki option at all... I'll try to remember this stnence: "If you see nothing useful now, then just tenuki and wait for a better opportunity"

is a good attack, pushing the weak W group toward the B strength above. But it is difficult to kill a single large group like this. To strengthen the attack, or to get compensation elsewhere, you additional leverage, which you can get here by pressing against the strong W group above. and are too soft, as they have no effect on the upper W group. Consider pressing directly at G15. If W hanes, you hane back, then keep pushing to get additional forcing moves, after which K11 becomes very severe, maybe even fatal. (This whole sequence might be even more powerful after first exchanging K11 for J12 or H13, but you would have to read that W could not connect with H14.) If W ignores G15, then H16 is a strong follow-up, likely forcing W to crawl along the second line while B builds center strength. Meanwhile, the W center group remains weak.

looks like you are going for the kill. Good, finally a really strong attack! Both sides made mistakes in the fight, but no matter, this is the attitude you need. Some notes on tactics: Could block at L13? (Can W do anything outside?) How about at K15? (Can W save this stone?) If W is going to live anyway, :b101: at J15 leaves the outside B position connected and extremely strong. This much thickness should provide enough territory to win.

I read that L13 would led me into trouble with so many cutting points around... wanted to play safely here...

:b119: should be at N16 for safety. Killing the two W cutting stones would be enough to win. Live and let die.

In the end, the easiest option was the best one

NB) In casual English, you can profit (or gain profit) from a profitable attack, which provides either direct profit or indirect benefits. It would sound a little strange to say you can benefit (or gain benefits) from a beneficial attack, but we would all get the idea . Your English is quite good.

Thank you for your lesson, it's been very profitable

[Uberdude]

is another overplay, deep within B influence. You must punish W for such impudence! Your first thought should be something like E10 or F11, rather than C11 which is purely defensive. E10 would go for an outright capture, ending the game, but requires reading. F11 aims to drive W downward, letting B naturally strengthen the two stones there. With pressing moves like E5 available, B should get a good result.

This was the move that annoyed me the most and didn't not how to handle it. F10 was the move I was looking for. Thank you.
Since I couldn't come up with E5 either, I played C5...

Actually I think the best answer to d11 is tenuki. It's just such a load of nonsense that doesn't even threaten to cut you (thanks to your slow move at b13) so you should ignore it and play the absolutely huge and severe o4 double high approach. Of course given your opponent is silly enough to play it in the first place if you cap he will probably run and give you thickness instead of being sensible, recognise his mistake, and play the o4 urgent point himself.

P.S. tenuki-ing invasions seems to be my latest fad, see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... f=4&t=9495. That invasion was sensible and reasonable though, just probably too early.

[alejo]

Actually I think the best answer to d11 is tenuki. It's just such a load of nonsense that doesn't even threaten to cut you (thanks to your slow move at b13) so you should ignore it and play the absolutely huge and severe o4 double high approach. Of course given your opponent is silly enough to play it in the first place if you cap he will probably run and give you thickness instead of being sensible, recognise his mistake, and play the o4 urgent point himself.

P.S. tenuki-ing invasions seems to be my latest fad, see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... f=4&t=9495. That invasion was sensible and reasonable though, just probably too early.

Since he is silly enough to play it and even escape, I'm sillier
So, it's either F10 or tenuki at O4... I'll try to be more aggressive whike playing tenuki if there is no good move available...

Thank you all!!!